Post-ruck tackle area?

[Rich_NL]

Blue 11 tackles red 14 on a break, and immediately gets to his feet to jackal (through the gate, legally), forming a ruck. Red 13 clears him out, and they end up off feet and clear of the ruck/tackle area, which is now just red 14 on the ground presenting the ball backwards. Blue 15 runs in from the side and grabs the ball.

In my case, blue 15 was offside from the ruck and hadn't retired onside, so it was a straightforward call. But if blue 15 had been onside, what's the status? Has it been won by red (and blue has to join from behind the ball), or is the ruck over as there are no longer people over the ball? If so, I understand a ruck ends a tackle, so is it open play and people can approach from wherever they like?

 

[Phil E]

Blue 11 is on his feet over the tackle area, so a ruck has formed under the one man ruck trial.

Or Blue 14 is contacted by Red 13 over the ball, so a ruck has formed in the traditional way.

[LAWS]2. A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet
and over the ball which is on the ground.[/LAWS]

After the clearout the ruck is still a ruck, because none of the three ways a ruck can end has been satisfied.
Then Blue 15 enters the "still a ruck" from the side. PK

[LAWS]ENDING A RUCK
17. When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played,
the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within
five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
18. The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the
ruck is on or over the goal line.
19. The ruck ends when the ball becomes unplayable. If the referee decides that the ball will
probably not emerge within a reasonable time, a scrum is awarded.[/LAWS]

 

[Rich_NL]

Thanks, Phil! I was unclear whether "ball leaving a ruck" also covers "ruck leaving a ball".

 

[Decorily]

Had a very similar situation myself about a month ago.
Must say it is a very hard 'sell' to players and others!!

 

[menace]

In regards to the scenario..I would be inclined to say ruck is over...the ball is clear of bodies and so that's what 99.999% of people will see it as ruck over.
Phil may be technically correct...but in this situation the ruck leaving the ball is as good as the ball leaving the ruck. You over complicate it by splitting hairs on that one.
It looks like a duck, walks and sounds like a duck....play it as a duck!

Besides by the new simple rules wording this is ending the ruck (so poorly worded - surprise me!)
"When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played,
the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within
five seconds. Sanction: Scrum"

The highlight bit I presume is the criteria for the ruck ended. So in the scenario suggested.
Is the ball clearly won? Tick.
Is the ball available to be played? Tick
So both conditions are met...the ruck is over!
The next part requires it to be cleared away. So it must be allowed to be played by anyone who was on side.

Again..I agree that wording is rubbish to define the ball is out.

 

[crossref]

players on the ground are out of the game

so if the ball is on the ground, surrounded by players who are all on the ground, and no one is near the ball on their feet, then the ruck must be over.

surely

 

[didds]

So the majority of elite "rucks" then.

 

[Zebra1922]

My first thoughts are this is still a ruck as although the ball has been won and is available, it hasn’t been played so we still have a ruck. However, it depends where the ball is. With no players over the ball where is the hindmost foot/back of the ruck? If the player is lying parallel to the goal line and has placed the ball, the ball is essentially now out of any ruck and we have an open play situation.

this is one of those situations that will be very dependent on what you see. I have no objection to this still being a ruck even if the original ruck forming players have left (through a clear out). Like a mall where the opposition back away after fist contact is still a maul, a ruck is still a ruck until it is over. Just depends when you believe the ruck is over.

 

[crossref]

I can see that one player on his own can be a ruck

I don't see how we can have a ruck composed of no players at all.

Isnt the idea slightly ridiculous ?

 

[Rich_NL]

Is the ball clearly won? If so by red, so is it OK for blue to approach from any angle? Can he clatter red 9 who runs up to play it, since it's open play? I agree it's hard to think of a player on the ground presenting a ball as an ongoing ruck, but I'm not sure the 'ruck over' criteria are met either.

 

[crossref]

The player on the ground is out of the game so we can ignore him

There is just a ball, on the ground

 

[Rich_NL]

The ruck was formed, there are laws as to when it ends.

It's just the set of laws that apply, not a description of what's happening. For instance, a maul can continue without meeting the criteria for starting a maul (all opposition players left).

 

[crossref]

A maul can't continue after everyone has left

I follow your logic, but to me there is a reduction ad absurdem ..a ball on the ground on its own can't be a ruck

 

[Rich_NL]

A maul indeed can't continue after everyone has left - because that's covered by the 'ending a maul' laws!

I can see both sides of the argument, and the difficulties of selling it either way.

 

[crossref]

In this situation
- I can buy PK against a lazy runner who was never onside from the ruck before it ended/disappeared, who now comes in to get the ball

- but if an already onsider comes in 'from the side' to pick the ball up .. play on

 

[Christy]

In this situation
- I can buy PK against a lazy runner who was never onside from the ruck before it ended/disappeared, who now comes in to get the ball

- but if an already onsider comes in 'from the side' to pick the ball up .. play on

In this situation
- I can buy PK against a lazy runner who was never onside from the ruck before it ended/disappeared, who now comes in to get the ball



- but if an already onsider comes in 'from the side' to pick the ball up .. play on

I would imagine , an all ready on side player , realistically as he gets closer to ball .
Would need to square off to some degree & basically end up approaching from behind the ball .
To allow himself pick up the ball , or even get himself at a good angle to fend off a possible 2nd counter ruck ..

If we are going to allow this , then surely we would allow the same player to kick the ball onwards also ..

now as kicking a ball in a ruck is forbidden .
We must be able to accept the ruck is actually over .

So yes , lazy runners , or originaly off side players still must get back on side 1st

Any thoughts ..

 

[MadRef77]

In any ruck if one side pushes the opposition back 1-2m and leaves the ball behind to the point that it's not within the ruck anymore, wouldn't we consider the ruck over as the ball left the ruck?
In the OP we have one supporting player clearing out a jackler past the ball, hence to me the ball has left the ruck and it's open play. Of course lazy runners still have to get onside first as usual.