Pundits common errors

[bcm666]

Ok, the autumn Internationals are coming up - what say, top ten areas/errors/things do you want us to get right re the laws - not issues that are wholly matters of opinion?

 

[Toby Warren]

He's got to let him up.
He's got to let him up
He's got to let him up

(I think you get the idea)

 

[didds]

momentum interpretation of forward passes verus lines on the pitch.

Dunno if RL has a different forward pass ruling etc but Jonathon Davies pulled Ray French up for lines on the pitch during Italy beating wales this afternoon. LOL.

didds

 

[Blackberry]

Double movement

 

[Taff]

Ok, the autumn Internationals are coming up - what say, top ten areas/errors/things do you want us to get right re the laws - not issues that are wholly matters of opinion?

The ball carrier doesn't need "downward pressure" to score.

 

[damo]

If the referee is speaking, let him speak without drowning him out with pointless chatter.

 

[didds]

and tell Eddy to shut up ;-)

(not really. ).

didds

 

[Stuartg]

and tell eddy to shut up ;-)

(not really. ).

Didds

yes , really

 

[4eyesbetter]

Dunno if RL has a different forward pass ruling etc but Jonathon Davies pulled Ray French up for lines on the pitch during Italy beating wales this afternoon. LOL.

I think it's usually reasonable to assume that the correct situation is the opposite of what Jonathan Davies says it is.

"If I get thrown out of the train as it goes through Dewsbury, I might hit the ground in Batley, but I was still thrown backwards."

 

[Toby Warren]

Since the advent of BT sport, we've had an improvement I think.

The forward pass debate has been laid to rest
They understand the dangerous tackle law

And then Healy and Dayglo speak!

 

[bcm666]

He's got to let him up.
He's got to let him up
He's got to let him up

(I think you get the idea)

Can you give me reference and your understanding please.

- - - Updated - - -

Double movement

Again ref and interpretation please.

 

[bcm666]

The ball carrier doesn't need "downward pressure" to score.

Just possession - i.e. control of ball?

- - - Updated - - -

If the referee is speaking, let him speak without drowning him out with pointless chatter.

Noted - please point out any that I do so that I can note them - thanks.

 

[dave_clark]

If the referee is speaking, let him speak without drowning him out with pointless chatter.

this. this with bells on.

bcm - you're actually pretty good at not doing this. pity you're the only one that is!

 

[Dixie]

BCM666 - what a fantastic thread! Many thanks indeed for taking the initiative.

Since the advent of BT sport, we've had an improvement I think. ... And then Healy and Dayglo speak!

Yes, well - enough said, really. But they are not unique - the woeful understanding of the laws of the game displayed by ex internationals who are now being paid to offer a "professional" insight is just extraordinary. During the recent West Country derby at the Rec, the pair were adamant that a tackler didn't have to go to ground in order to get the privilege of not having to come around the back to play the ball. And then when the ball hit a seated ballboy, they spouted a load of highly irritating ignorant drivel about the ballboy not having actively played the ball, and so the quick throw should have been allowed. We were impressed when you did your own ref's course - that should help avoid the more egregious errors of the punditariat, and thank God for that.

There was a tight call on the touchline as well, when the defender jumped to play the ball, spilled it forward and a team mate ahead of him then played the ball to give away a PK for offside. They questioned whether the AR had failed to spot that the player was in touch. The laws in that situation are tricksy , complicated and highly nuanced - worth accessing Line Ball Your Call (www.brumbies.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket...tabid=1415‎) to get a fix, and then have it to hand during the match.

Just possession - i.e. control of ball?

Careful here. The ball carrier is by definition in control of the ball - if he's lost control of it without regaining it, he's no longer the BC. If a BC has his hands underneath a ball and skids forward without pressing the ball down at all, the a try is scored if a blade of grass touches the ball, as the ball is then grounded. But if an attacker is chasing the bouncing ball into in-goal, then he DOES need to press down (i.e. apply downward pressure).

[LAWS]22.1(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

22.1(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.[/LAWS]

In neither case is "control" a factor, except insofar as the BC who has lost control is no longer a BC, and so (assuming no knock-on) becomes subject to 22.1(b), requiring downward pressure.

 

[Taff]

Just possession - i.e. control of ball?

A ball carrier just needs the ball to "touch" the ground to score - ie no pressure needed.

A loose ball though needs "downward pressure" for a try.

Sorry, I don't have a lawbook handy but I'm sure somebody else can give a law reference.

 

[Ian_Cook]

If the referee is speaking, let him speak without drowning him out with pointless chatter.

...and then going on to say how they don't know what the penalty kick was for because they weren't listening to the referee explain!

(...hello? Stuart Barnes? Are you listening to me?)


Oh and this one irks me....


"Charge Down! Everyone's onside!!"

NO THEY ARENT!

All the players in the kicking team are onside, but any team-mates ahead of the player who charged the ball down are offside!

 

[The Fat]

BCM666 - what a fantastic thread! Many thanks indeed for taking the initiative.



Yes, well - enough said, really. But they are not unique - the woeful understanding of the laws of the game displayed by ex internationals who are now being paid to offer a "professional" insight is just extraordinary. During the recent West Country derby at the Rec, the pair were adamant that a tackler didn't have to go to ground in order to get the privilege of not having to come around the back to play the ball. And then when the ball hit a seated ballboy, they spouted a load of highly irritating ignorant drivel about the ballboy not having actively played the ball, and so the quick throw should have been allowed. We were impressed when you did your own ref's course - that should help avoid the more egregious errors of the punditariat, and thank God for that.

There was a tight call on the touchline as well, when the defender jumped to play the ball, spilled it forward and a team mate ahead of him then played the ball to give away a PK for offside. They questioned whether the AR had failed to spot that the player was in touch. The laws in that situation are tricksy , complicated and highly nuanced - worth accessing Line Ball Your Call (www.brumbies.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket...tabid=1415‎) to get a fix, and then have it to hand during the match.

Careful here. The ball carrier is by definition in control of the ball - if he's lost control of it without regaining it, he's no longer the BC. If a BC has his hands underneath a ball and skids forward without pressing the ball down at all, the a try is scored if a blade of grass touches the ball, as the ball is then grounded. But if an attacker is chasing the bouncing ball into in-goal, then he DOES need to press down (i.e. apply downward pressure).

[LAWS]22.1(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms Remember that in the case of a bouncing/moving ball that is off the ground, a hand making contact and then "guiding" the ball to the ground, is considered to be holding/in possession of the ball as per the clarification for 22.4(g). No downward pressure is required.

22.1(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.[/LAWS]

In neither case is "control" a factor, except insofar as the BC who has lost control is no longer a BC, and so (assuming no knock-on) becomes subject to 22.1(b), requiring downward pressure.

And can I just add my vote for the the commentators to not talk over the ref when he is explaining/communicating a decision to the players. It is so annoying and then the commentators will go about debating what the decision was for. I think this is similar to what damo said but it definitely needs repeating.

 

[OB..]

Can you give me reference and your understanding please.

Law 14.1 identifies three actions that are legal for the player who has fallen on the ball, but does not say he has a right to take those actions if an opponent is legally trying to take the ball. The actual wording of the law is not very precise, but that is the standard interpretation.

Again ref and interpretation please.

"Double movement" is a misleading term. Laws 15.5 (g) and 22.4 (e) allow a player who has been tackled near the goal line to reach out and ground the ball for a try provided he does so immediately. "Reach out" is interpreted as meaning he can use his arms only, and is not allowed to try and move his body forward to get closer to the line.

A player who is tackled and immediately pushes himself forward with his legs to get the ball over the line may only have made one movement, but it is an illegal one. It is also illegal to reach out after a significant delay (even though the movement would otherwise have been correct).

It is better to say "illegal movement". The argument that "everybody knows what is meant" is not true - I have heard far too many spectators getting it wrong.

 

[Shelflife]

Just to add my voice (ironic I know) but let us listen to the ref when hes talking, even before I was a ref I wanted to hear what he was saying as its very important regarding the next few passages of play.

 

[OB..]

Just possession - i.e. control of ball?

Law 22.1 provides two ways of grounding the ball. If the ball is being held, it is only necessary to touch the ground with it. This is distinguished from the need to apply downwards pressure if the player is not holding the ball.

"Control" as such is not mentioned, and is not a requirement. If a player loses control of the ball in attempting to score, all that matters is whether or not it went forward. A player with his hand under the ball can score if he lets part of it touch the ground - not much sign of pressure there.

A player who slaps his hand down on a loose ball cannot be said to have controlled it if it shoots forward like an orange pip when squeezed between his hand and the ground, but he has scored a try. Shooting forward like that shows that part of the pressure was downward