QTI opportunity over when?

[ChrisR]

One of the requirements for a Quick Throw In (QTI) is that "the lineout has not formed".

My take is that the lineout has formed when two players from each team are at the line-of-touch between the 5 & 15. This is regardless of the status/position of any other player.

Now, lets say that Blue put the ball in touch and the Red thrower retrieves it without anything else that would invalidate a QTI.

The same Red thrower moves into position, all Red teammates are properly positioned but Blue have not yet put two players in the lineout. (ie. at the LOT).

Is the QTI still on? I'm not talking about a quickly taken lineout. I'm asking if you'd allow the Red thrower to pitch it directly to his receiver as a QTI.

As I see it the lineout has not formed therefore the QTI is still on.

If Blue had players in the lineout but Red held back and tried the QTI I;d say they violated 19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout

 

[Andrew1974]

I think that is a pretty good description, in my mind a quick through in is on (assuming same ball, not touched etc etc) until the non throwing side has 2 people roughly in position. But, although I don't recall actually seeing it in a game situation, but if the throwing team tried to gain an advantage by deliberately not forming a line, then I would hope I would spot that and sanction as you have suggested.

 

[crossref]

One of the requirements for a Quick Throw In (QTI) is that "the lineout has not formed".

My take is that the lineout has formed when two players from each team are at the line-of-touch between the 5 & 15. This is regardless of the status/position of any other player.

Now, lets say that Blue put the ball in touch and the Red thrower retrieves it without anything else that would invalidate a QTI.

The same Red thrower moves into position, all Red teammates are properly positioned but Blue have not yet put two players in the lineout. (ie. at the LOT).

Is the QTI still on? I'm not talking about a quickly taken lineout. I'm asking if you'd allow the Red thrower to pitch it directly to his receiver as a QTI.

As I see it the lineout has not formed therefore the QTI is still on.

If Blue had players in the lineout but Red held back and tried the QTI I;d say they violated 19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout

The QTI is still on -- I actually see this a lot in grass roots rugby, there is an urban myth that says that you can stop an opponent's QTI by having two of your own players formed up on the LoT. That doesn't work for the reasons you say.

As to how long can red maintain the possibility of a QTI by not forming a line? That's a hole in the Laws, there's no specific time, but eventually you do see refs peep that 'enough' time has passed, let's get on with a line out now.

 

[Dixie]

If Blue had players in the lineout but Red held back and tried the QTI I;d say they violated 19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout

Possibly, but you need to be consistent. If you ping Red here because their thrower had been at the LOT for 10 seconds without a Red lineout appearing, what do you do at the next throw-in when no QTI is possible, but Blue have a strategy to huddle, agree the throw and then walk into the lineout. If Blue are still huddling after 15 seconds, do you ping them too?

As to how long can red maintain the possibility of a QTI by not forming a line? That's a hole in the Laws, there's no specific time, but eventually you do see refs peep that 'enough' time has passed, let's get on with a line out now.

It's very rare that a decent ref would have to blow. It's one of the many things she "manages" throughout the game, along with second-rows at scrum who can't even think of binding to each other and kneeling down before the FR have been through the whole rigmarole of setting up. A quick word will almost always get the teams hurrying along.

 

[Browner]

One of the requirements for a Quick Throw In (QTI) is that "the lineout has not formed".

My take is that the lineout has formed when two players from each team are at the line-of-touch between the 5 & 15. This is regardless of the status/position of any other player.

Now, lets say that Blue put the ball in touch and the Red thrower retrieves it without anything else that would invalidate a QTI.

The same Red thrower moves into position, all Red teammates are properly positioned but Blue have not yet put two players in the lineout. (ie. at the LOT).

Is the QTI still on? I'm not talking about a quickly taken lineout. I'm asking if you'd allow the Red thrower to pitch it directly to his receiver as a QTI.

As I see it the lineout has not formed therefore the QTI is still on.

If Blue had players in the lineout but Red held back and tried the QTI I;d say they violated 19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout

I thought I'd asked the same thing in the other thread marauder

. ..... if the throwing team are on route to the LoT and then as the first player arrives they throw him the ball, what do we have ???? Its not yet a formed (2+2) LO, so presumably they could also throw it inunstraight to one of the arrivees under the permission of a QTI?????

If not, why not? I'm thinking it can, but it doesnt feel right.

 

[OB..]

If a lineout has formed, 19.2 (a) says there is no longer a QTI option. However the law does not say quite which requirements from 19.8 are the minimum to constitute a formed lineout for this purpose. It is usually understood that 2 players from each side is enough. Other criteria, such as an immediate opponent to the thrower, are not necessary. However it is unclear if a couple of players wandering around somewhere near the line of touch really count. They could be backs retiring

There is no obligation on the throwing side to form a lineout when a QTI is still on,but some delays could be considered time-wasting.

 

[Browner]

I'm starting to think that a QTI ought to have a time limit, as without one all sorts of 'pre-arrival' shenanigans could be played out

Ie...team send forward x2 players to form a LO, Player2 walks slower & stops to rub his aching knee, he's now 2.5 m behind his fellow LO joinee , as player1 arrives at the LoT his hooker lobs the ball to P1 under the permission of QTI law.

Surely this isn't equitable.

So, how about "a QTI needs to be taken within 5 seconds of the ball going into touch" ...law addition ?

 

[crossref]

I'm starting to think that a QTI ought to have a time limit, as without one all sorts of 'pre-arrival' shenanigans could be played out

Ie...team send forward x2 players to form a LO, Player2 walks slower & stops to rub his aching knee, he's now 2.5 m behind his fellow LO joinee , as player1 arrives at the LoT his hooker lobs the ball to P1 under the permission of QTI law.

Surely this isn't equitable.

So, how about "a QTI needs to be taken within 5 seconds of the ball going into touch" ...law addition ?

In theory there can be some shenanigans, but It's not a problem that I see in practice.
Every so often a team delays and delays and the Ref finally says it's taken too long and time for a lineout

 

[Browner]

In theory there can be some shenanigans, but It's not a problem that I see in practice.

Give it time, coaches will exploit, the discussions that follow instances like the one we have just seen can be read on social media one side of world and brought into a coaching session the next day on the other !!

 

[crossref]

QTI have been around for a very long time ...

 

[talbazar]

Two words for me in that kind of situation: "Manage it!"...

No point looking for a reason to blow the whistle and/or turn over possession....

My two cents,
Pierre.

 

[Ian_Cook]

[LAWS]19.2 QUICK THROW-IN

(c) A player must not take a quick throw-in after the lineout has formed. If the player does, the
quick throw-in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the lineout.

(d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is
not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and
an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.[/LAWS]

IMO, this simply means that the option to take a QTI expires when either of these highlighted critera take place.

[LAWS]Law 19.8 (d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
[/LAWS]

Yet another example of piss poor wording.

As I read this, NO player is obliged to approach the LoT, but if they do approach, THEN they must do so without delay.

In the case being discussed in the other thread (Rebels v Blues) none of the red players standing out beyond the 15m line are "approaching" they are just standing there.

Then there is this one...

[LAWS]19.8 (g) Failure to form a lineout. A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

There is no time constraint here. How long do you give them?

In the New Zealand v England series last year, England made quite a production of approaching the LoT, then stopping short and having a discussion about what they were going to do before carrying on the the LoT. This would seem to be allowed under 19.8 (g) since they were not refusing to form a line-out, but not allowed under 19.8 (d) since they were delaying their approach to the LoT.

I suppose the referee could always invoke 10.2 (b)

 

[Browner]

Two words for me in that kind of situation: "Manage it!"...

No point looking for a reason to blow the whistle and/or turn over possession....

My two cents,
Pierre.

How about ....blue get caught off guard when Whites jump the gun & score a try ....reason enough??

 

[talbazar]

How about ....blue get caught off guard when Whites jump the gun & score a try ....reason enough??

Browner, I said "manage it"... Not "Don't do anything"...
All I mean is, slow things down, bring it back and do a proper line out. And if possible, do that before the "try" is scored...

Peep-peep
Sorry gentlemen, to messy for me, can we have a line out please!

What I mean is (and I repeat), do you really need to give a FK in one direction or another???
I don't believe so.

Pierre.

 

[Browner]

Browner, I said "manage it"... Not "Don't do anything"...
All I mean is, slow things down, bring it back and do a proper line out. And if possible, do that before the "try" is scored...

Peep-peep
Sorry gentlemen, to messy for me, can we have a line out please!

What I mean is (and I repeat), do you really need to give a FK in one direction or another???
I don't believe so.

Pierre.

Under that ethos, you'll be doing away with FKs per se' , preferring a "Manage it" 2nd attempt for all infringements.

& I'm saying why not give the change of possession, why is one FK award of lesser value than any of the Law 19.10 infringements ???? Are you going to ignore all those?

Insisting that the players come back and set a second ( but this time properly constructed) LO will ;
a) likely take longer than just giving the FK & recommencing play
b) wont discourage future 'chance your arm' ism
c) is what Law expects

The game will be ignoring unstraight feeds or early shoves next ..... Oh wait !

 

[ChrisR]

This next scenario is also under the banner "Is the QTI on?"

Red awarded penalty and kick for touch, let's say 30m. Blue winger catches the ball in touch and places it down on the line-of-touch marked by the TJ.

Red players race up the pitch, past the Blues, pick up the ball and execute a QTI.

I can't find a reason why not as long as it's not forward and goes the 5m. Sporting? That's a different question.

 

[OB..]

Red awarded penalty and kick for touch, let's say 30m. Blue winger catches the ball in touch and places it down on the line-of-touch marked by the TJ.

Red players race up the pitch, past the Blues, pick up the ball and execute a QTI.

[LAWS]19.2 (d) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]an opponent who carried it into touch[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]. [/FONT][/LAWS]Blue winger did not carry it into touch.

 

[crossref]

Or how about this
Red are awarded a PK 5m from Blue line
They kick to touch, slightly backwards and ball crosses the touchline 6m out
Where it is caught by waiting red player who immediately executes a QTI

clever move? Or do you find some reason to disallow it?

 

[ChrisR]

Or how about this
Red are awarded a PK 5m from Blue line
They kick to touch, slightly backwards and ball crosses the touchline 6m out
Where it is caught by waiting red player who immediately executes a QTI

clever move? Or do you find some reason to disallow it?

Play on! (And wonders why they didn't just take the tap)

 

[Taff]

.... Is the QTI still on? I'm not talking about a quickly taken lineout. I'm asking if you'd allow the Red thrower to pitch it directly to his receiver as a QTI. As I see it the lineout has not formed therefore the QTI is still on. If Blue had players in the lineout but Red held back and tried the QTI I;d say they violated 19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout

The way I see it, is a QTI is always "On" until a lineout has formed. Once a LO has formed (ie 2 team mates from each team on - or as near as dammit to the LoT) the option of a QTI dies.

... Yet another example of piss poor wording. .... There is no time constraint here. How long do you give them?

A "reasonable" time. This does not require them to sprint to the Lot, but it doesn't allow for fannying around either.

No-one can argue with "reasonable" because that would be errr ... unreasonable.