Query 1. Where Is The Offside Line?

[Taff]

20.12 (c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum. This scrum-half may not move into the space between the flanker and No. 8 when following the ball through the scrum. Sanction: Penalty kick

A query came up after my game yesterday, so to keep it simple it's a straight question:

Where is the offside line for the "opposing team's" SH? Is it the ball or the Flanker? :chin:

 

[winchesterref]

Ball, but they can't slot themselves into the pocket between the flanker and the 8.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Think of it as somewhat analogous to the opponent of the thrower at the lineout

Technically, in standing between the 5m line and the touchline, "2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line". he is offside under other laws of the game (he is neither in the line-out nor 10m back and is not a receiver. Nonetheless, the Law says he must be there and is not allowed to move away until the ball is thrown.

 

[Taff]

Ball, but they can't slot themselves into the pocket between the flanker and the 8.

I'm glad you said that, because quite a few thought the new law meant the Flanker was the offside line - to the extent that I started doubting myself.

 

[didds]

I am gobsmacked as to how anybody could consider the flanker the offside line.

Stranger things happen at sea I suppose.

Didds

 

[ChuckieB]

As the ball moves back, the flankers feet effectively become the offside line even if it is not specifically defined as such.

 

[Pegleg]

As the ball moves back, the flankers feet effectively become the offside line even if it is not specifically defined as such.

Not so. The ball is always the offside line.

20.12(c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum , the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum.
This scrum-half may not move into the space between the flanker and No. 8 when following the ball through the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Even if the Scrum half is onside (for eexample the ball is at the 8's feet he may not go into the pocket but he is not offside.

 

[Pegleg]

Think of it as somewhat analogous to the opponent of the thrower at the lineout

Technically, in standing between the 5m line and the touchline, "2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line". he is offside under other laws of the game (he is neither in the line-out nor 10m back and is not a receiver. Nonetheless, the Law says he must be there and is not allowed to move away until the ball is thrown.

I disagree. He has a different offside line. At a line out different offside lines apply to different players. None of them are "technically" offside as those offside lines do not apply. Such an analogy only serves to confuse the position.

 

[ChrisR]

The difference between the SH at a scrum and the 'thrower's opposite number' at a lineout is this:

At a scrum the SH has options as to where he starts before the ball goes in. Then he has an offside line & requirements unique to him.

The 'Ops number' at a lineout is a specific requirement pre-throw. He then has movement options but the off-side line is not specific to him.

I agree with Pegleg that Ian's last post confuses this issue. Not up to Ian's usual standard.

 

[Taff]

Not so. The ball is always the offside line.

The easiest way to explain it I think is the old imaginary "rubber band" example we use in rucks. That seems to work.

 

[OB..]

The "opposition thrower" at a lineout is a "participating player", so his offside line is defined in 19.13 (b). In addition, he has restrictions (since 2009) on where he may stand before the lineout begins, which are not offside lines (one restriction is sideways).

The losing scrumhalf similarly has a defined offside line (the ball) once the scrum has started. He has an additional restriction in that he may not move (sideways) into the gap between the flanker and the pack, even if he is still behind his offside line.

At a tackle, there are no offside lines, but there are restrictions on where players can go. It is very important to recognise that such restrictions do not constitute offside lines.

 

[didds]

As the ball moves back, the flankers feet effectively become the offside line even if it is not specifically defined as such.

even when the ball is at the #8s feet?

the D9 can still move to within 1m of the scrum and behind the ball. What he cannot do is step in the "pocket".

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

The difference between the SH at a scrum and the 'thrower's opposite number' at a lineout is this:

At a scrum the SH has options as to where he starts before the ball goes in. Then he has an offside line & requirements unique to him.

The 'Ops number' at a lineout is a specific requirement pre-throw. He then has movement options but the off-side line is not specific to him.

I agree with Pegleg that Ian's last post confuses this issue. Not up to Ian's usual standard.

I think you have both missed the point I was making.

► The losing scrumhalf has an additional Law which applies only to him. It specifies that he cannot move into the space between the flanker and No. 8 when following the ball through the scrum.

► The opposition thrower has an additional Law which applies only to him. It specifies that he cannot move away in any direction from a position 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line

In neither case are these players "offside" if they breach their respective Laws.

 

[Pegleg]

No we did not miss the point. We felt your analogy did not help to make it.

 

[ChuckieB]

even when the ball is at the #8s feet?

the D9 can still move to within 1m of the scrum and behind the ball. What he cannot do is step in the "pocket".

didds

I wasn't looking to suggest it was an offside line defined in law, just a similar effect, i.e. sanction, for it.

But as you raise the issue, would stepping beyond the flankers feet not perhaps deem him at risk of being considered in the pocket? Have the law makers clarified what is?

 

[thepercy]

I wasn't looking to suggest it was an offside line defined in law, just a similar effect, i.e. sanction, for it.

But as you raise the issue, would stepping beyond the flankers feet not perhaps deem him at risk of being considered in the pocket? Have the law makers clarified what is?

No. The non-ball winning SH can move towards the DBL as far as the ball, what he can't do is angle in toward the ball and stand behind the flanker.

 

[Taff]

No. The non-ball winning SH can move towards the DBL as far as the ball provided he stays within 1m of the imaginary rubber band. What he can't do is angle in toward the ball and stand behind the flanker.

Just added the bit in red for clarification.

 

[ChuckieB]

No. The non-ball winning SH can move towards the DBL as far as the ball, what he can't do is angle in toward the ball and stand behind the flanker.

Hardly very far then so as to expect to achieve any material benefit. Not much likely rewards as such. He leaves himself exposed to getting it wrong in my view.

 

[didds]

I wasn't looking to suggest it was an offside line defined in law, just a similar effect, i.e. sanction, for it.

But as you raise the issue, would stepping beyond the flankers feet not perhaps deem him at risk of being considered in the pocket? Have the law makers clarified what is?

If you mean the D9 is immediately behind the flanker's feet, then no, he is clearly not in the space between the flanker and the lock.

didds

 

[didds]

Taff: What he can't do is angle in toward the ball and stand behind the flanker.

I have to disagree

If there is sufficient space immediately behind the flanker's feet, that is adjacent to the number 8 but not in front of the ball, then that seems fine to me. He isn;t in"the pocket" and he isn't "offisde" via the ball's position.


2
2
.......8
2.D9

2 = second/middle row of the scrum including flanks
8 = number 8 with ball at feet
D9=non winning s/half

didds
2