Question from a new ref...

[Nihil RFU]

I am a rookie ref who doesn't mind expressing opinions. If I'm off somewhere, show me where and why... but here is a question I have that I'd like some feedback on.

When calling knock ons, I try to see if the ball actually went forward. While in principle it seems fair, there are some times it is difficult to tell and calls can get botched. When I was learning the game at university, there were many old CARFU refs who would call _any_ mishandling a knock. Not the fairest, but it avoided botched calls.

Is calling any mishandling a knock in your opinions?

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Mishandling is not a knock on, the ball has to go forward, if it doesn't, it isn't a knock on

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Mishandling ie a bit of juggling and it doesn't go forward and hit the floor or another player?

Play on.

IIUC.

 

[Dixie]

Welcome Nihil. Your question is one that most refs have to make a call on pretty much every game.

To be a knock-on, the ball must: a) go forward; b) hit the ground or another player before the original knocker-on regathers. So: if a regather occurs before it hits the ground or another player, then play on. The most usual doubt is whether or not it went forward. There are instances when most of us, I'm sure, would judge that it did - irrespective of evidence. Equally, those cases are rare.

By and large, if the ball is kicked long and the would-be catcher drops the ball with the ref a long way away, then for me, the presumption is knock-on unless I can clearly see it go backwards. Contrarily, if I'm in line with the backs as they pass it along, and there's a fumble - then I want to actually see it go forward before I whistle.

So I'm inconsistent on this - but I think I can justify the inconsistency.

 

[OB..]

By and large, if the ball is kicked long and the would-be catcher drops the ball with the ref a long way away, then for me, the presumption is knock-on unless I can clearly see it go backwards. Contrarily, if I'm in line with the backs as they pass it along, and there's a fumble - then I want to actually see it go forward before I whistle.

So I'm inconsistent on this - but I think I can justify the inconsistency.

I think that approach is fairly standard.

 

[Rit Hinners]

I remember one of the first games I saw on the TV.

A player was waiting to recieve a kick. Standing still. Arms extended overhead.

The ball went through his hands and landed behind him.

The whistle went and a knock on was called.

????

Seemd to me that the ref was in the "any mishandling is a knock on school".

Is that what you mean Nihil?

BTW, welcome to RR.com.

 

[Nihil RFU]

Thanks all. That helps.

 

[crossref]

catching a kick is one good example of when you may need a rule of thumb, as the ref may be some way away, the other is the scrum half fumbling a pick up att he back of a ruck as although you will be close by to this, very typically you are looking up checking for backs behind back-feet and players entering ruck illegally, etc etc.. and have the scrum half just in the corner of your eye, enough to see him fumble, and ..... well, most likely that was a KO as well.

 

[Nihil RFU]

catching a kick is one good example of when you may need a rule of thumb, as the ref may be some way away, the other is the scrum half fumbling a pick up att he back of a ruck as although you will be close by to this, very typically you are looking up checking for backs behind back-feet and players entering ruck illegally, etc etc.. and have the scrum half just in the corner of your eye, enough to see him fumble, and ..... well, most likely that was a KO as well.

Excellent advice. I got heat from a scrum down where the blindside view was obscured.

 

[SimonSmith]

Facing the opposition goal line and drop the ball - probably a k/on
Facing sideways or backwards ("grrreat technique" (c) Bill McLaren) - less likely.

I'm not being snarky here, but this is a simple, meat and potatoes issue. Where's the complication that I'm missing?

 

[Nihil RFU]

I remember one of the first games I saw on the TV.

A player was waiting to recieve a kick. Standing still. Arms extended overhead.

The ball went through his hands and landed behind him.

The whistle went and a knock on was called.

????

Seemd to me that the ref was in the "any mishandling is a knock on school".

Is that what you mean Nihil?

BTW, welcome to RR.com.

Yes. CARFU in the 90's was like that. (When I was learning the game.)

 

[Nihil RFU]

Facing the opposition goal line and drop the ball - probably a k/on
Facing sideways or backwards ("grrreat technique" (c) Bill McLaren) - less likely.

I'm not being snarky here, but this is a simple, meat and potatoes issue. Where's the complication that I'm missing?

Not really, but at this level, somertimes the ball will still go backwards. (My players I coach have turned this into an art form. I'll call knocks at practice, telling them if your reflexes are that good, you should be able to catch the **** ball.) I'm looking to see how others today manage this.

 

[barker14610]

I'm not being snarky here, but this is a simple, meat and potatoes issue. QUOTE]

Simon, look at his society. Jamo does not let them eat potatoes. Meat, and lots of it, is the prescribed diet up there. Sweet potatoes are OK, but not the good old fashioned Idaho white potatoes.

 

[TigerCraig]

I think the fielding a kick one is kind of like the myths we love talking about here - it comes down to expected practice and what players and spectators are used to seeing happen.

For example last week I saw a fullback "drop" a catch from a kick, but it never actually hit his hand or arms - it hit his chest and went forward.

As we all know, that is not a knock on, but the ref blew it up. Player was happy, other players were happy, spectators (except maybe me) were happy.

Attitude was kind of "well if he didn't get his hands to it, he should have".

 

[MattB]

I think the fielding a kick one is kind of like the myths we love talking about here - it comes down to expected practice and what players and spectators are used to seeing happen.

For example last week I saw a fullback "drop" a catch from a kick, but it never actually hit his hand or arms - it hit his chest and went forward.

As we all know, that is not a knock on, but the ref blew it up. Player was happy, other players were happy, spectators (except maybe me) were happy.

Attitude was kind of "well if he didn't get his hands to it, he should have".

I agree with Tiger, this is surprisingly one area where the crowd and players are remarkably accepting of ref decisions; no moaning or shouting from sidelines, no extra refs appearing as if by magic on the pitch. Just last week I found myself thinking what a pity the losing team player dropped the kick deep in defence, ball went forward a little, now they are going to get mercy ruled, ahh well we all get a rest for the scrum.
Matt

 

[crossref]

I think the fielding a kick one is kind of like the myths we love talking about here - it comes down to expected practice and what players and spectators are used to seeing happen.

For example last week I saw a fullback "drop" a catch from a kick, but it never actually hit his hand or arms - it hit his chest and went forward.

As we all know, that is not a knock on, but the ref blew it up. Player was happy, other players were happy, spectators (except maybe me) were happy.

Attitude was kind of "well if he didn't get his hands to it, he should have".

good post.. and on those occasions when it clearly does go backwards, then you need some clear loud calls 'went backwards.. play on' plus I am often seeing a samizdat 'ball went backwards' signal as well.

this is to communicate largely to the crowd 'yes i did notice it and no i am not an idiot'

 

[Phil E]

You don't drop it........I won't blow it

 

[Dickie E]

You don't drop it........I won't blow it

said the actress to the bishop

 

[Dickie E]

I agree with Tiger, this is surprisingly one area where the crowd and players are remarkably accepting of ref decisions; no moaning or shouting from sidelines, no extra refs appearing as if by magic on the pitch. Just last week I found myself thinking what a pity the losing team player dropped the kick deep in defence, ball went forward a little, now they are going to get mercy ruled, ahh well we all get a rest for the scrum.
Matt

Hi Matt & welcome to a lively & entertaining forum. I've been on for a few years and have got a lot out of it.

Make sure you don't take the Poms too seriously. :wink: