[Law] Question on Law 10.2

kid a

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10.2
(c) A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
Sanction: Penalty kick


The law above states that a player must not intentionally knock the ball out. But what if a player tries to do this, but before the ball goes out of play, it first touches another player?

So in effect, the law then becomes semantical, as the ball actually never reached 'out of play' directly by the players actions, but the player did try to '
knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch'.

Thanks


 

Phil E


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If it went forward; Knock On.

If it didn't go forward; Play On.

If it didn't go out of play, then he can't be guilty of putting it out of play.
 

kid a

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If it went forward; Knock On.

If it didn't go forward; Play On.

If it didn't go out of play, then he can't be guilty of putting it out of play.

Thanks. I think that's in definite of a law rewrite then, as negative play like that is ruining the game.

In theory then you could pass the ball into touch to end the game if you make it come off an opposition player. As long as it goes level / backwards.
 

crossref


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good question!

1 If it was headed for touch, and merely bounces off another player on the way into touch -- I think give the PK.
2 If it's not clear whether the knock/throw actually would have gone into touch, but it hits a player and goes into touch - play on, lineout.
3 If the ball hit another player and remained on the pitch, then play on..



(I am assuming the throw/knock wasn't deliberately forward, which would be a PK anyway, whatever happens)
 

Rich_NL

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In theory then you could pass the ball into touch to end the game if you make it come off an opposition player. As long as it goes level / backwards.

If your tactic for last play of the game is to throw it behind your line towards an opposition player, you'll probably learn other tactics are less disappointing :)
 

kid a

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good question!

1 If it was headed for touch, and merely bounces off another player on the way into touch -- I think give the PK.
2 If it's not clear whether the knock/throw actually would have gone into touch, but it hits a player and goes into touch - play on, lineout.
3 If the ball hit another player and remained on the pitch, then play on..



(I am assuming the throw/knock wasn't deliberately forward, which would be a PK anyway, whatever happens)

What about this:

da238f07bb7ce7853bd1ea71401c7587.gif
 

didds

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Thanks. I think that's in definite of a law rewrite then, as negative play like that is ruining the game.

In theory then you could pass the ball into touch to end the game if you make it come off an opposition player. As long as it goes level / backwards.

Yes. But the risk would be that instead of going into touch off the oppo, they instead picked it up and played on.

didds
 

crossref


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What about this:

great question! What did the TMO give?

You could look at this and say that--

1) blue gets his hands to the ball first, and red manages to knock the ball out of his hands before he scores (It just happens to go into TIG, but that was incidental) Play on (so either a 22m or 5m scrum depending on how the ball got into the in goal.

OR
2) before blue can get his hands on the ball red deliberately knocks the ball into TIG to stop him - so PK and therefore a PT.

I am guessing the TMO said (1)
 
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talbazar


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What about this:

da238f07bb7ce7853bd1ea71401c7587.gif

I would answer slightly outside of topic:
Red player knocking the ball forward on purpose into Blue player preventing Blue to score a probable try.
PT & YC

But I'm not using law 10.2.

Admitting Red knocked the ball backwards onto Blue player's hand then into touch-in-goal, I reckon the YC + PK would be right in spirit.
I'm not 100% sure it would be right in law... For all the reasons listed above.


It's always the same question: What was done on purpose?
The knock out of the to-be-scorer hands
or
The fact the ball goes into touch/touch-in-goal

And furthermore, does it actually matter?
 

kid a

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Yes. The referee gave a dropout 22m. If that is the law being officiated correctly then fair enough. But as far as I can see the red player deliberately tried to knock the ball out of play which directly affected play. The fact it came off something else first shouldn't come into it.

I don't see Blue getting his hands on it first. I see red tapping it away. Negative play, which if not against the laws is quite concerning.

I actually think tapping the ball when 2 players are going for it should be outlawed completely (apart from lineout obviously). It's a completely negative play. Players should show they are attempting to catch the thing not tap it away.

e9ab7947d36558415b6d0130c098965b.gif


This one is 100% legal as the ball is knocked towards his own tryline. But the green player is never attempting a catch. Just to disrupt negatively. Juts a bugbear of mine.
 

DocY


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In the OP, surely you can ping him for intentionally offending? Then you just have to judge whether it was C&O and material.

In that clip, I'd give the PT - he was clearly trying to knock the ball out of play.
 

crossref


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This one is 100% legal as the ball is knocked towards his own tryline. But the green player is never attempting a catch. Just to disrupt negatively. Juts a bugbear of mine.

I think that's an unreasonable bugbear - I don't see anything against the spirit of the Laws in that one.
 

4eyesbetter


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That gif is exactly the kind of thing I imagine (except with the player facing the other way) when I write about "I don't understand why some people are so determined to see deliberate knock-ons instead of failed attempts at a spectacular intercept followed by a length of the field try". I've seen those stick in the hand more times than I can count.
 

DocY


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This one is 100% legal as the ball is knocked towards his own tryline. But the green player is never attempting a catch. Just to disrupt negatively. Juts a bugbear of mine.

I see what you mean with this one - definitely negative play. I'd be hesitant about saying that all knock backs should be penalised though - I have no problem with players trying to knock a kick or a bouncing ball back to a team mate.
 

OB..


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Yes. The referee gave a dropout 22m. If that is the law being officiated correctly then fair enough. But as far as I can see the red player deliberately tried to knock the ball out of play which directly affected play. The fact it came off something else first shouldn't come into it.

I don't see Blue getting his hands on it first. I see red tapping it away. Negative play, which if not against the laws is quite concerning.

I actually think tapping the ball when 2 players are going for it should be outlawed completely (apart from lineout obviously). It's a completely negative play. Players should show they are attempting to catch the thing not tap it away.

This one is 100% legal as the ball is knocked towards his own tryline. But the green player is never attempting a catch. Just to disrupt negatively. Juts a bugbear of mine.
Surely all defensive play is negative in that it is aimed at preventing the opponents from scoring. I think negativity is a red herring. I have seen some brilliant attacking tip passes. If you are going to allow those for the attackers, you MUST allow them for the defenders as well.

I think the basic point was decided back in the nineteenth century. When England played Scotland in 1884, a Scot knocked the ball back from a lineout. An Englishman grabbed it and dived over the try line. The Scots claimed that knocking the ball in any direction was against the law, so play should have stopped at that point.

In those days, each side provided an umpire, and any offence had to be appealed. If the two umpires agreed, the scrum was awarded. If they disagreed, then a relatively new-fangled invention called the referee would adjudicate. The Scots claimed their umpire had agreed and that several players on both sides had stopped, thinking the English umpire had agreed. The referee was Irish (he had in fact played against both countries in the previous season).

It turned out that in Scotland they always treated any knock as an infringement. However the game was being played in England, so the RFU pointed out that their interpretation applied: knocking back had always been legal. The referee agreed and later said that he did not see why the Scots should be entitled to benefit from their own error - the first ever advantage call? (There was no advantage law at that time, because if you wanted advantage, you simply did not appeal).

A delightfully waspish correspondence ensued between the two union secretaries and Scotland refused to play England the next season. A year later in Dublin the Scots finally agreed to accept the decision "for the good of rugby", but this was one of the incidents that led both to the formation of the IRB, and to giving the referee power to make decisions without appeals, relegating the umpires to touch judge duties.
 

crossref


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I guess with the advent of the TMO to whom the on-field referee can appeal, and to whom he usually defers --- we've come full circle
 

Pegleg

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Going back to the OP the law is clear:

10.2
(c) A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A knock back does not fall under that law. So eg a line outjumper tapping the ball back which then evades capture and goes in to touch is correctly not ruled illegal inder the quoted law. Similarly a pass that is poorly directed, and which goes into touch is not considered to be deliberately thrown into touch.

I think if it is "C&O" that a player has thrown or knocked the ball with the intention of putting it into touch and it goes off another player on the way then rule it as deliberate. But you have to be very sure that it is C&O or you are going to look a prat.

As for knock backs in general play, why not. OB sums it up well the whole point of defence is to NEGATE the attackers attack. Do you want to ban tacking as it is negative? Or competing for the ball in Rucks and mauls because it is stopping the nice man from scoring? Nonsense!

 

crossref


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I think if it is "C&O" that a player has thrown or knocked the ball with the intention of putting it into touch and it goes off another player on the way then rule it as deliberate. But you have to be very sure that it is C&O or you are going to look a prat.

what about where it is "C&O" that a player has thrown or knocked the ball with the intention of putting it into touch but it hits another player (or indeed the corner flag) bounces, and stays in field of play .... play on, right ? despite his intention?
 

OB..


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what about where it is "C&O" that a player has thrown or knocked the ball with the intention of putting it into touch but it hits another player (or indeed the corner flag) bounces, and stays in field of play .... play on, right ? despite his intention?
Despite his intention, he has failed to commit an offence.

I would also include"reckless" under "intentional". In the clip, Red's main aim is to prevent Blue scoring, but realistically, the way he swings at the ball, he can only do that by knocking the ball into touch.
 
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