[Line out] Quick Line Out vs. Quick Throw in

[OB..]

Since the definition of a lineout includes both sides having at least two players in the lineout, and the non-throwing team having a player 3m in 2m back from the LoT, it is impossible to have a quickly-taken lineout (where those conditions are not met) in accordance with the Laws.

The law says where players should be. It does not say that they have to be there before the ball can be thrown in. For example it says where a receiver should stand, but we all know you do not have to have one.

There is a gap in the law. How far we should close that gap by interpretation is unclear (largely because the opposition usually makes a point of being there first).

 

[RobLev]

The law says where players should be. It does not say that they have to be there before the ball can be thrown in. For example it says where a receiver should stand, but we all know you do not have to have one.

The Law is clear that a receiver is optional:

[LAWS]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.[/LAWS]

Equally, it makes clear that a player at 3 + 2 is compulsory:

[LAWS] The team not throwing in must have a player standing between the touchline and the 5-metre line on that team’s side of the line of touch when the lineout is formed. That player must stand 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line.[/LAWS]

There is a gap in the law. How far we should close that gap by interpretation is unclear (largely because the opposition usually makes a point of being there first).

A combination of the definition of a lineout:

[LAWS]The purpose of the lineout is to restart play, quickly, safely and fairly, after the ball has gone into touch, with a throw-in between two lines of players.[/LAWS]

and Law 19.8(g):

[LAWS]A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.[/LAWS]

make clear that the norm is that the ball is thrown in only when the lineout has been formed.

 

[OB..]

The Law is clear that a receiver is optional:

[LAWS]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.[/LAWS]

Equally, it makes clear that a player at 3 + 2 is compulsory:

[LAWS] The team not throwing in must have a player standing between the touchline and the 5-metre line on that team’s side of the line of touch when the lineout is formed. That player must stand 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line.[/LAWS]



A combination of the definition of a lineout:

[LAWS]The purpose of the lineout is to restart play, quickly, safely and fairly, after the ball has gone into touch, with a throw-in between two lines of players.[/LAWS]

and Law 19.8(g):

[LAWS]A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.[/LAWS]

make clear that the norm is that the ball is thrown in only when the lineout has been formed.

The gap is that it does not say the thrower must wait until the lineout is fully formed.

 

[Dickie E]

The gap is that it does not say the thrower must wait until the lineout is fully formed.

The inference is pretty clear to me. The throw is to commence a lineout. A lineout doesn't exist until 2 + 2 from each team.

 

[OB..]

The inference is pretty clear to me. The throw is to commence a lineout. A lineout doesn't exist until 2 + 2 from each team.

So as long as their delay did not amount to voluntarily failing to form a lineout,you would allow them to make the opposition wait if it suited them?

I agree the inference is reasonable, but it is still no more than an inference. The Mike Philips try against Ireland in 2011 might be used as a counter argument, though it is not entirely clear if that was the decision.

 

[Dickie E]

So as long as their delay did not amount to voluntarily failing to form a lineout,you would allow them to make the opposition wait if it suited them?

Yes, I'll hold up the throw until there are 2 + 2 noting that my tolerance to delay will be comensurate with the throwing team's desire to get on with it.

Broadly speaking, once the thrower is in psoition I would expect both lines to be formed within about 5 seconds.

Interestingly I reffed a game last weekend where the throwing team all walked in together with the throw coming as they arrived. I won't say it was a disaster but it certainly seemed to not work to their advantage. The throw alighted while they were still dicking around.

 

[didds]

At the time you ping it, because you've waited long enough, they've failed to join...

And you would similarly ping throwing teams that huddle and delay their approach to the lineout? If so, why doesn't everybody else? If you don't why not?

Didds

 

[crossref]

I'd like to consider how we referee normal, regular lineouts.

Isn't it the case that for lineouts you pro-actively, preventatively, work to make sure the set up is correct -- especially the first two or three as you lay out your stall :
"hold on #2"
"both teams - straight lines please"
"red that's your mark - blue give a little"
"fly-half? take a step please .... thank you"
"oppo hooker? 2m back please ... yes, thank you"

etc etc --

setting out your stall...

get the first two or three lineouts right, set out what you want from players, and they will be good for rest of the afternoon. Same as you do for first two/three scrums.


So, then an hour later you will completely abandon your standards, ignore all of that and let a hooker throw unexpectedly into an untidy huddle of players who don't even realise a 'lineout' is supposedly taking place? I don't see it.

 

[OB..]

Interestingly I reffed a game last weekend where the throwing team all walked in together with the throw coming as they arrived. I won't say it was a disaster but it certainly seemed to not work to their advantage. The throw alighted while they were still dicking around.

I have seen this, and referees generally tell teams they have to pause after arriving at the lineout. Otherwise things get chaotic

 

[RobLev]

And you would similarly ping throwing teams that huddle and delay their approach to the lineout?

If they take too long, yes.

If so, why doesn't everybody else?

You'd have to ask them.

If you don't why not?

...

'Cos I'm not a referee... epper::biggrin: