Quick Throw - Offside Implications

[PaulDG]

Hi all,

I'm more than a bit confused by the issue of Offside at the Quick Throw that's been discussed on another thread.

Rather than me complicate that thread further, I'd appreciate it if someone can please specify exactly what the issue is and if anything has actually changed as a result of the ELVs or is it simply that the ELVs make Quick Throws more likely?

Thanks.

 

[Dixie]

Simply more likely to happen, and thus needs closer consideration than it has received hitherto. There is one potential change, in that the chasing player (onside) has to consider the possibility of a throw-in not straight to a player behind the thrower. Accordingly, he might elect to position himself ahead of the thrower (from his perspective). Is there an offside line at a quick throw? It never used to be an issue, because the chaser never went further than the line of touch.

If there is no offside line at the throw, can a Green player who was behind the Red thrower (from Red's perspective - i.e. standing beyond both the line of touch and the place where the ball was thrown in) tackle the receiver of the quick throw if that receiver stood level with the thrower?

I'm conscious that sounds confusing, so let me paint a picture. Ball kicked direct to touch from Green's 22, crosses the touchline on the Red 10m line. Red winger collects the ball, and rushes to the 22m line trying to take a quick one to the Red FB standing well within the 22. Green winger, onside, has chased hard and moves beyond the 22 to cut down the option of a throw to the FB. Red 12 arrives at the 22m line, and receives the ball from a straight throw by Red winger. A few moments later, he is tackled from behind by the Green winger.

Bearing in mind that Green winger would have been standing in an offside position at any other breakdown and any full lineout, was his tackle legal, or was he offside from the moment the ball was thrown in?

 

[David J.]

I think the OP is referring to the offsides at a kick to touch discussion that we were having. Which is different than, "Is there an offsides line at a quick throw?"

I would say no to that. If a player is on sides when the ball goes into touch I have no problem with him placing himself closer to the opponents goal line than the thrower.

The question we were discussing in the other thread is, "Do offsides lines continue after a ball has been kicked to touch, if the a quick throw is taken?" I was advocating a "Yes" to that, but after a night's sleep, I'm not as sure.

If the offsides player complied with the legal requirements (by not advancing after the kick frex) UNTIL the referee blew his whistle...then I can see him being allowed to advance after the whistle.

I guess now I'm ambivalent.

 

[Ian_Cook]

If there is no offside line at the throw, can a Green player who was behind the Red thrower (from Red's perspective - i.e. standing beyond both the line of touch and the place where the ball was thrown in) tackle the receiver of the quick throw if that receiver stood level with the thrower?

Yes he can, because there is no offside line at a quick throw. The Law is "silent" in this respect. If it does not say there is an offside line there, then there isn't one. It is effectively general play.

A quick throw, even under current law, is NOT a line-out. Players can be within 10m of the LOT when the throw is taken, and can receive a pass from the thrower; the thrower can throw the ball to himself provided it travels 5m. Adding the backwards throw allowed for in the ELVs changes none of this.

Bearing in mind that Green winger would have been standing in an offside position at any other breakdown and any full lineout, was his tackle legal, or was he offside from the moment the ball was thrown in?

Offside lines do not occur until after the line-out is formed:

LAW 19.2 QUICK THROW-IN
(a) A player may take a quick throw-in without waiting for a line-out to form.


Ergo, there are no offside lines because;

LAW 19.7 FORMING A LINE-OUT
(a) Minimum. At least two players from each team must form a ine-out.

LAW 19.8 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINE-OUT
(a) Line-out begins. The line-out begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in.

A player cannot be offside when the ball is out of play, and cannot become offside when it is thrown in UNLESS a line-out is formed under Law 19.7

 

[KML1]

Thank you Ian - that was driving me mad! Clearly there is no offside when the ball is out and there isn't an offside line until something happens which then creates some form of offside. Can you just imagine a world where just by throwing the ball into the field of play, you make someone liable to be offside! I'd jack it in instantly as my brain is small and I cannot cope!

If the chaser is starting from a legal position, then the throwing in side clearly aint going to opt for a quick line out.

I thought it was pretty simple really.

 

[Dixie]

A player cannot be offside when the ball is out of play

Clearly there is no offside when the ball is out

Authoritiative and succinct views which have relevance for the discussion started in the other thread.

So if an offside Green player is standing on the Red 22m line as the ball crosses the touchline at the Red 10m, he ceases to be offside the moment the ball goes into touch (e.g. when a red player standing in touch catches it). Thereafter, he can affect play any way he wants once (or even before) the ball is put back into play from a quick throw.

This seems to conflict with the message ex-lucy is getting from his Society, however.

 

[KML1]

Indeed, but if he was offside when it went out, he would still be liable to be penalised for whatever he was doing at that time. Remember, just being offside isn't a problem, it's what he is doing at that point while the ball is in play that you would have to judge. Not sure future intention comes into it!

 

[Ian_Cook]

So if an offside Green player is standing on the Red 22m line as the ball crosses the touchline at the Red 10m, he ceases to be offside the moment the ball goes into touch (e.g. when a red player standing in touch catches it). Thereafter, he can affect play any way he wants once (or even before) the ball is put back into play from a quick throw.

This seems to conflict with the message ex-lucy is getting from his Society, however.

A different scenario. If the Green player was offside when the ball crossed the touchline, then he presumably became offside before the ball crossed touch, perhaps by being ahead of the (Green) kicker.

a. If he was ahead of the (Green) kicker and therefore chased the ball from an offside position to get there, he should have been ruled offside back where the kick was taken.

b. If he was in that position as a results of general play then he is OK. e.g. here is a typical sequence of events which illustrates this;

► Green 10 kicks the ball downfield, a long, high kick.
► Green 12 chases the ball from an onside position.
► Red 15 catches the ball just outside his 22 and attempts to kick the ball back downfield.
► Green 12 attempts to charge down Red 15's kick, fails to do so, but falls to the ground a few metres inside the Red's 22.
► Green 14 catches the ball and kicks (bounces) the ball into touch on Reds 22.
► Green 12 picks himself up off the ground. He is not offside, and is entitled to tackle any Red players receiving a quick throw in.

 

[David J.]

The question hinges on whether a player can be offsides when the ball is in touch.

1) Green 10 kicks the ball from outside his 22m.
2) Green 12 who is in front of Green 10, and more than 10m from where the ball will land, stands his ground.
3) The ball lands in touch and the referee blows his whistle.
4) Green 10 and no player behind Green 10 has come up to Green 12's position. Green 12 advances to Red 15 who has retrieved the ball and is attempting a quick throw.

Is Green 10 liable to penalty?

Though he was not offsides before the refereed whistles, he did nothing penalizable (ie did not advance). Once the whistle went off, he advanced, gaining the advantage of having been in that offsides position.

Is that an offense?

 

[Davet]

So Green 12 is technically offside, in front of last player on ihs team to play the ball, buit it not liable to penalty because he is not advancing (being face down in the mud) and not interfering with play.

Then the ball goes into touch - becoming dead. That cancels the technical offside, situation is effectively reset by the death of the ball.

So THEN Green 12 can advance and treat the quick throw as general play.

OK - I will go with that quite happily.

I asume that the corollary is that if the player was inside 10 from where the ball landed (in this case it bounced into touch, so landed in FoP) he would have been liable to penalty had he not retired as soon as he could get to his feet. Or does the ball going into touch cancel that? What if the kick had gone directly to touch, would the 10m Law still apply? What if the player was stood - still - rather than being off his feet?

 

[Ian_Cook]

The question hinges on whether a player can be offsides when the ball is in touch.

1) Green 10 kicks the ball from outside his 22m.
2) Green 12 who is in front of Green 10, and more than 10m from where the ball will land, stands his ground.
3) The ball lands in touch and the referee blows his whistle.
4) Green 10 and no player behind Green 10 has come up to Green 12's position. Green 12 advances to Red 15 who has retrieved the ball and is attempting a quick throw.

Is Green 10 liable to penalty?

Though he was not offsides before the refereed whistles, he did nothing penalizable (ie did not advance). Once the whistle went off, he advanced, gaining the advantage of having been in that offsides position.

Is that an offense?

No. He was not offside under the 10m law before the ball went into touch, so why would he become offside when the ball did go into touch?

 

[Deeps]

Indeed, but if he was offside when it went out, he would still be liable to be penalised for whatever he was doing at that time. Remember, just being offside isn't a problem, it's what he is doing at that point while the ball is in play that you would have to judge. Not sure future intention comes into it!

That's it in a nutshell, however, a player offside from a previous play remains offside and thus potentially liable for penalty until he is put onside by his or the actions of other players. I don't see that the ball going into touch changes this.

 

[Ian_Cook]

That's it in a nutshell, however, a player offside from a previous play remains offside and thus potentially liable for penalty until he is put onside by his or the actions of other players. I don't see that the ball going into touch changes this.

►Ball goes into touch.
►Referee blows whistle
►How can any players still be be offside now?

Any player that was offside prior to the ball going into touch should have been pinged for offside at that time

►Ball comes out of a scrum, and the Green SH kicks to touch 15m downfield just as Green 8 leaves the scrum.

►Green 8 makes NO attempt to chase the kick and is not within 10m of where the ball landed, so the 10m law does not yet apply to him.

►Red 14 takes a few seconds to recover the ball before taking a quick throw in to Red 15 who is immediately tackled by Green 8.

Who is going to ping Green 8 for offside prior to the quick throw in?

Certainly not me!

Surely, the 10m law only applies if the ball lands in and stays in the field of play, otherwise, there would be no legal way for the for anyone in Green's forward pack to approach the LOT for a line-out.


Edit: On reflection......
The 10m Offside Law was modified a while back. As I remember, it used to be a 10m circle and only became a 10m line across the field relatively recently. However, the 10m Law itself has been "on the books" for a long, long time; certainly much longer than the quick thrown-in has.

Now this issue of whether or not an offside player can still be held to be offside after the ball goes into touch, would never have come up before the quick throw in became Law. There would not have been any reason to specify this, because the ONLY possible way to restart was by a line-out, which REQUIRED players to approach the LOT, and has its own offside specifications anyway.

Speculation: I do not believe that the Lawmakers ever intended for the offside law to apply once the ball was in touch. I believe that it has only become an issue since the quick throw-in was introduced, and has been further thrown into stark relief by the ELV's introduction of the angled quick throw.

IMO, the ball is dead while it is in touch.

DEFINITIONS
Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.

A ball in touch is outside the playing area.
► You cannot tackle a player holding the ball when he's in touch
► a player cannot advance the ball to any position further upfield than the LOT
► a player can pass the ball forward (no wisecracks about "momentum" please!) to any other player in touch.

Only once the ball comes legally back into the field of play does it become alive again. The only thing that the law allows to be ruled when the ball is outside the playing area is foul play - Law 10.4(l).

 

[Dixie]

I agree that the ball is dead while it is in touch, and that offside cannot apply while the ball is in touch. To rule otherwise, as discussed elsewhere, leaves you in a situation where forwards ahead of the kicker cannot legally approach the line of touch until they have been put onside. But in truth, as soon as it is clear that the ball will not land in play, forwards everywhere amble up to the L-O-T, while kickers and onside players reposition themselves for the next phase of play. This has been so for as long as I remember (Ian, I'm sure I played quick throw-ins when I started playing in the mid-70's). Nothing in the ELVs changes any of this - it's just thrown it all into starker contrast.

 

[PaulDG]

Thanks all, and esp Ian, this has cleared a lot up for me.

I think one thing still remains though.....?

►Ball goes into touch.
►Referee blows whistle
►How can any players still be be offside now?

Any player that was offside prior to the ball going into touch should have been pinged for offside at that time

But in the "face down in the mud" situation, that player was offside but not liable for penalty as he was not advancing, not interfering with play, etc.

So he should not have been penalised.

Anyway, now he gets to his feet - lets say he's way way up the field, way past the LOT and very close to the QT receiver....

If we're of the view the dead ball at the QT cancels the offside, is it OK for him to intercept the QT? Or tackle the receiver?

If I understand everything above, then yes, it is OK.

I'm happy with that as a result - it's bound to be a rare situation and the player who is daft enough to pass to his team mate when that team mate has an opposition player right next to him probably deserves to lose the ball (counting on a hope that the opposition player is probably offside is plainly a risky strategy!).

But I'm also comfortable with the idea that no, it's not OK as it does appear that an unintentional loiterer has gained advantage here. Though that does create the apparent anomaly that ball in touch doesn't always cancel offsides...

So, can I ask for clarification again, please?

Is the player getting up from the mud who was offside but also was not liable for penalty because he was unable to retreat and was not interfering with play anyway potentially offside after the QT or not?

 

[Pablo]

Paul, I actually pinged this during a Level 6 cup match last season.

Blacks win ball at ruck near touchline, black fly half punts some 50m downfield without finding touch.
All white players begin retiring, except for white hooker.
White fullback gathers, sees many black chasers and punts from within his 22 towards the touchline near where the ruck took place.
White hooker still about 40m offside when the ball is caught cleanly by black winger a couple of metres beyond the touchline, and then hooker turns and starts jogging towards line-of-touch in anticipation of the lineout.
Black winger takes quick throw in to black flanker, who is almost immediately tackled by the white hooker.

I instinctively blew for a penalty for offside against white hooker because it "looked wrong" - not a word of complaint uttered by white captain at the time, and he actually scolded his hooker.

I discussed it in the bar with both my assessor and the white captain. Captain thought it was fair, because his player had gained an advantage from being lazy (his choice of word!). Assessor thought it was fair because the white hooker was within 10m of the black winger as he caught the ball... even though catching it made it technically dead. I am not 100% confident that my decision was defensible under Law, but it was equitable, and it felt correct under the circumstances.

FWIW, the assessment came back with a G grade.

I will be very interested to see what sort of consensus gets reached on here...

 

[Deeps]

Pablo, I am with you 100% and you have illustrated what I believe to be true well, however, as you would agree I am sure and to satisfy some, it applies only to the quick throw in situation. For a normal line out, the ball is clearly out of play, dead, buried and has flowers on top yet, in a quick throw in situation, where the opposition is allowed to create an advantage, then the ball has not gone dead. It may have gone into touch and become dead (you will know from the TJ's signals whether the ball is playable or not), or if it may be played, is scooped up and quickly thrown in and the referee has not indicated a stoppage by blowing his whistle then the ball has not gone dead.

Those who doubt this may like to check the definition of 'Dead' LotG p. viii viz:

'Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken. [my italics]

I certainly never blow the whistle if there is an opportunity for a quick throw in until that option has clearly been declined. I am conscious of the need to check for potential offside players too.

 

[ex-lucy]

Pablo's scenarios is exaclty what i have been trying to explain and banging on about .. cheers
happens quite a lot in low grade rugby due to lazy FR players or BR players slow to get up after tackles ...

and this is likely to happen more often with ELVs as players look for more options to attack e.g. throw ball backwards from touch ... defenders will look for options to defend e.g. hang around for a while to see if they can get to the breakdown/ set piece quicker by taking short cuts/ cheating.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Pablo's scenarios is exaclty what i have been trying to explain and banging on about .. cheers
happens quite a lot in low grade rugby due to lazy FR players or BR players slow to get up after tackles ...

and this is likely to happen more often with ELVs as players look for more options to attack e.g. throw ball backwards from touch ... defenders will look for options to defend e.g. hang around for a while to see if they can get to the breakdown/ set piece quicker by taking short cuts/ cheating.

We can argue and try to come to a consensus as much as we like, but somewhere along the line, someone (on high) is going to have to make a decision about whether offside still applies after the ball is in touch and before the referee blows the whistle. Like PaulDG, I am perfectly comfortable with either scenario, but there needs to be clarification.

In the end, I think a lot of the onus falls on the player throwing the ball in to make sure he's not relying of the referee to call the offside against would be tacklers of the receiver

 

[David J.]

The "If there is still an offsides line when the ball goes into touch, then offsides forwards can't form a line out" argument doesn't hold water for me.

A player who is offsides is only penalizable if he is interfering with play, right? If no quick throw is possible, such a player can't interfere with play and offsides is irrelevant. Once the quick is disallowed, there's nothing stopping such offsides players from advancing to the LOT.

One scenario...
Black kicks. White flanker watches the ball go over his head at his 40m. White FB catches inside his 22m. White flanker advances 20m towards the Black goal line. White FB takes his kick for touch and White flanker stops at the Black 40m. Referee whistles for touch and White flanker advances again and is able to prevent a quick throw by clever application of the offsides rule.

And finally, I've always blown my whistle when the ball has gone into touch whether a quick is possible or not. Am I doing that wrong?