Quick Throw - Offside Implications

[Deeps]

The "If there is still an offsides line when the ball goes into touch, then offsides forwards can't form a line out" argument doesn't hold water for me.

A player who is offsides is only penalizable if he is interfering with play, right? If no quick throw is possible, such a player can't interfere with play and offsides is irrelevant. Once the quick is disallowed, there's nothing stopping such offsides players from advancing to the LOT.

There are two situation here David. Let's assume that the ball going into touch has not necessarily gone dead [LotG definition of 'dead' and 19.2(d)]. If a quick throw in is possible and meets the requirements of 19.2 then players remaining offside from a previous play are liable to penalty if they interfere. Conversely, if the ball is made dead on going into touch or the quick throw in opportunity is not taken, then the referee blows his whistle and play is stopped. This wipes out all previous offside situations and a normal lineout restart is ordered.

One scenario...
Black kicks. White flanker watches the ball go over his head at his 40m. White FB catches inside his 22m. White flanker advances 20m towards the Black goal line. White FB takes his kick for touch and White flanker stops at the Black 40m. Referee whistles for touch and White flanker advances again and is able to prevent a quick throw by clever application of the offsides rule.

I don't think so, the player is still offside. I would have his guts for garters for not retiring and think about a yellow card too!

And finally, I've always blown my whistle when the ball has gone into touch whether a quick is possible or not. Am I doing that wrong?

Although the ball may be in touch, it may not have been made dead by touching another person or an object outside the field of play. It would be wise to wait before whistling in case the entitled team take the quick throw in option. If such a player makes to play the ball, hold on but not for two long; he doesn't get a second bite of the cherry.

 

[Phil E]

And finally, I've always blown my whistle when the ball has gone into touch whether a quick is possible or not. Am I doing that wrong?

I think that is correct. When the ball crosses the touch line it is dead (in my view), so blow it, a quick throw is just another way of restarting.

The touch judge will raise his flag when the ball goes into touch (does this not signal to the ref to blow his whistle) but won't point his arm to the throwing side until a quick throw is no longer possible.

 

[SimonSmith]

I disagree - if the quick one is on, I don't blow.

Players stop when they hear the whistle - as soon as they do that, their ability to go quick is compromised.

As a wise man told me - it's good to not find a reason to blow the whistle Grasshopper.

 

[Phil E]

6.A.8 THE REFEREE’S WHISTLE

(e) The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of
play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is
awarded.

You would blow your whistle for a FK or a PK without compromising a quick one.

 

[OB..]

Sometimes there is doubt as to whether the ball is in touch or not (particularly at grass roots). I prefer the players to get used to hearing the whistle and knowing they can still take a quick throw-in if appropriate.

 

[Dixie]

A player who is offsides is only penalizable if he is interfering with play, right? If no quick throw is possible, such a player can't interfere with play and offsides is irrelevant. Once the quick is disallowed, there's nothing stopping such offsides players from advancing to the LOT.

But David, perhaps the main way for the quickie to be prevented is for two or more players from each side to form a lineout at the LOT. Your argument is circular. If the forwards are all offside watching a kicking duel between FB's, and Red FB mistakenly kicks into touch from his 22 achieving the gain in ground, aren't those offside Red forwards not only prevented from chasing to where the quickie might be taken, but also from forming up at the LOT? This is an awful lot for a ref to be taking into account, bearing in mind that the ball is dead and both Ian and KML1 started us off with a lovely clean assertion that there can be no offside when the ball is out of play.

 

[Davet]

I have always blown the whistle when the ball is in touch. That signals the ball is dead. If someone wants to take a quick throw then that restarts play.

The whistle tells everybodt that the ball did go into touch, and that therefore the phase of play has moved on to that.

I cannot for the life of me see why a player, hearing the whistle, would then not feel able to restart play in any of the appropriate ways. As per PK and FK as mentioned above; in which cases the whistle is the signal that the phase of play has changed and players have obligations and possibilities appropriate - which is the same with the ball going into touch.

 

[David J.]

But David, perhaps the main way for the quickie to be prevented is for two or more players from each side to form a lineout at the LOT. Your argument is circular. If the forwards are all offside watching a kicking duel between FB's, and Red FB mistakenly kicks into touch from his 22 achieving the gain in ground, aren't those offside Red forwards not only prevented from chasing to where the quickie might be taken, but also from forming up at the LOT? This is an awful lot for a ref to be taking into account, bearing in mind that the ball is dead and both Ian and KML1 started us off with a lovely clean assertion that there can be no offside when the ball is out of play.

No, it's not circular. I was replying to the objection that by declaring forwards in front of a kick to touch (the example was a SH kicking over a scrum) offsides, it becomes nearly impossible to form a lineout.

I do think it's a lot of the referee to be taking into account, but is it any more than we already do when there is a kick and the ball does NOT go into touch?

The assertion that there can be no offsides when the ball has gone into touch is not settled.

 

[Ian_Cook]

With regards to touch, I have always blown my whistle;

1. When I see the ball is in touch, and/or
2. When the TJ signals that the ball is in touch.

I would never consider not blowing it "in case" someone wanted to take a quick throw-in. I consider that the ball is dead in either of the above scenarios, therefore all offsides become void, and the game restarts, however that might be; line-out or quick throw-in.

Now I am open to the idea that I was doing this incorrectly for 10 years, and the ball might be alive, and offsides are still valid until the line-out is formed, but I do not believe that is something which can be resolved here.

If you are all having Society meetings about the ELV's and are providing feedback to the RFU, this would be an ideal opportunity for you all to bring this up at your various meetings to try to get some official clarification.

OB: would you know exactly then the quick throw-in came into the Laws? I thought 1980's perhaps

 

[Dickie E]

OK. Here's a similar situation to test us:

Blue FB kicks over his team mates' heads into Red 22. Red player catches ball and calls 'mark'. Ref blows whistle and awards FK.

What are the options available to the Blue players in front of the Blue kicker? Are they still offside after the FK is awarded? Can they charge the Red kicker as soon as he moves to kick or do they have to wait to be put onside?

 

[PaulDG]

OK. Here's a similar situation to test us:

I don't think it's similar.

Blue FB kicks over his team mates' heads into Red 22. Red player catches ball and calls 'mark'. Ref blows whistle and awards FK.

What are the options available to the Blue players in front of the Blue kicker? Are they still offside after the FK is awarded? Can they charge the Red kicker as soon as he moves to kick or do they have to wait to be put onside?

The FK creates an offside line - Blue players are required to be 10m back.

This is different to the QT issue. The consensus here seems to be the QT does not create either an offside line or some other "technical line". I believe that makes it the only form of restart that doesn't.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I don't think it's similar.



The FK creates an offside line - Blue players are required to be 10m back.

This is different to the QT issue. The consensus here seems to be the QT does not create either an offside line or some other "technical line". I believe that makes it the only form of restart that doesn't.

No, but I can see what Dickie is getting at. The Blue players that were ahead of the kick are not allowed to interfere with play under the 10m law. Players who are offside under the 10m law can only be put onside by action of their own team, and not by the actions of their opponents.

LAW 11.4 (b) While retiring, the player can be put on-side before moving behind the imaginary 10-metre line by any of the three actions of the player’s team listed above in 11.2. However, the player cannot be put on-side by any
action of the opposing team.

So what Dickie is suggesting is that the 10m offside line (under Law 11.4) must end when the referee awards the mark and then the mark creates its own 10m offside line. The opposition are allowed to charge the kick;

Law 21.8 (e) Charging the free kick. Once they have retired the necessary distance, players of the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the kick being taken. They may charge the free kick as soon as the kicker starts to approach to kick.

Otherwise, since they were ahead of the original clearing kick, if they exercise their right to charge the kick, they could still be offending under Law 11.4 because they are taking part in play without being put onside by the actions of their own player.

The inference here, then, is why does the Mark appear to "reset" play, but not the fact that the ball goes into touch?

 

[Dickie E]

yeah, what he said :swet: :swet: :swet:

 

[OB..]

Ian Cook - I am in Atlanta at present with no access to my law books, so I'll look it up when I get home in a couple of weeks time.

 

[OB..]

If the ball is kicked from behind you, then you are offside. If you move forward, you are liable to be penalised. I'm sure we are all happy with that.

If the ball is caught for a Mark, you cannot approach within 10 metres, so you cannot interfere with his kick.

If the ball goes into touch, it is possible within the lineout law to prevent a quick throw-in by covering the prospective catcher. That seems wrong, so if the player was offside before the ball went into touch, I see no reason why you cannot penalise him for that.

 

[Ian_Cook]

If the ball is kicked from behind you, then you are offside. If you move forward, you are liable to be penalised. I'm sure we are all happy with that.

Yes

If the ball is caught for a Mark, you cannot approach within 10 metres, so you cannot interfere with his kick.

Yes and No

Yes, you cannot approach within 10m, but

No. As soon as the "marker" offers to kick you can charge at him and attempt to disrupt the kick;

Law 21.8 (e) Charging the free kick. Once they have retired the necessary distance, players of the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the kick being taken. They may charge the free kick as soon as the kicker starts to approach to kick.

So if a player who was previously offside under Law 11.4 (10m law), now exercises their rights under Law 21.8, are they in breach of Law 11.4 because they are taking part in play without having been put onside by a team-mate?

If not, then why can this not apply to the quick throw-in?

The thrower can move up and down the touchline, so the "offside" player would be forced to move back to keep 10m away or would not be allowed to advance beyond the LOT. This in itself seems wrong, when in all other applications of the 10m law, the "offside" player can remain where he is while the ball carrier advances.

 

[OB..]

I was merely contrasting two situations by drawing attention to the differences. I did not think it necessary to spell out all the details.

If you chase up offside and then a Mark is called, the kicker still has 10 metres to play with. In the case of a kick to touch, he doesn't. Thus in the first case there is less need to apply the offside penalty in the interests of equity.

That does not resolve the legal conundrum, but it is an important practical consideration.

 

[David J.]

Otherwise, since they were ahead of the original clearing kick, if they exercise their right to charge the kick, they could still be offending under Law 11.4 because they are taking part in play without being put onside by the actions of their own player.

A player is able to put himself onside under the 10m law by retreating 10m, which is what he has to do under the FK/Mark rules. A player that is offsides in general play is put onside when an oppo kicks, which is what is required for a FK. The "offside line is live" and the FK rules are mostly complementary, but yes, the former does indicate that an "offsides" player is unable to charge (during the approach but before the kick).

But then, if a player who calls mark runs 5m before kicking it (say he caught it on the run). Does that mean the "offsides" player is now onside in terms of 11.3?

The thrower can move up and down the touchline, so the "offside" player would be forced to move back to keep 10m away or would not be allowed to advance beyond the LOT. This in itself seems wrong, when in all other applications of the 10m law, the "offside" player can remain where he is while the ball carrier advances.

What laws require the offside defender to back up to keep 10m away or not cross the LOT? Why does the 10m line move with the catcher?