RC issued in the bunker

BikingBud


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And here we are Eng ARG , two at once

Apart from the bizarre outcome that Curry was red carded because someone jumped into him, high lateral velocity again, was it in issue?
 

Pinky2


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Curry was red carded because he was too upright in the tackle and there was head to head contact
 

BikingBud


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Curry was red carded because he was too upright in the tackle and there was head to head contact
@Pinky2 This thread wasn't about the red card per se, more the ability of the FPRO to manage multiple events which I do not think is an issue, some others seem to.

But as you consider the Curry red card to be appropriate I offer the following.

In the same manner that during the Eng v Ireland 6 Nations match Steward was stationary and the offended player ran into him, Curry was pretty much stationary when the Argentina full back jumped and began recklessly travelling along the pitch, with the full knowledge that this gives him impunity, protection and absolution, landed on Curry. Yes Curry was primed for the tackle and taking a well set stance as he has been coached and regularly displays, an excellent technique.

Should Curry have bent further to satisfy the must get lower brigade so he could be clattered on the back of the neck? That could have lead to a significant spinal injury🤬

The same Law:
9.11 - Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.

Has a variation and this might be where @crossref wishes to see the clarification, opponent vice tackler, as jumping into Ford when clearly Ford is not a tackler and also when jumping into crowded space, there are many opponents not tacklers, although Curry did then tackle but had the offence been committed when the Argentina player jumped recklessly into opponents?

With both of these examples, more relevant than hypothesis about players laying at the back of a ruck, the onus from the RFU DLV is now placed on the jumper, both the Argentina players have recklessly set themselves up for contact but expect to get protection, Curry was the victim of where the Argentina player landed and the Argentina player who jumped into Ford was bizarrely not red carded :censored:

And the other 2 instances where the players weren't jumped into yet definite head contact occurred, SA v Scotland and Japan v Chile, were not red carded

The system is inconsistent, perpetuates true reckless and dangerous play and shows the whole organisation as shambolic and farcical, this is not really about player safety.🙈🙉🙊
 

crossref


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@Pinky2 This thread wasn't about the red card per se, more the ability of the FPRO to manage multiple events which I do not think is an issue, some others seem to.
My understanding now is that there are actually two FPROs in the bunker , working together.

That gives me much more confidence that they can work on two reviews at the same time

(and three would be pretty unlikely surely/
 

crossref


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One weekend in and it's clear that the big disadvantage of the bunker system is that we don't get to hear the reasoning being applied to get to the different decisions. This lack of transparency in turn undermines confidence in the decisions
 

belladonna

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Well, again, interpret howsoever you like...

Chairs of DC can, and have, be cherry picked. Or to the use phrase emailed to me, "selected". I think it would be naive to think that picking certain people might not be happening with an eye to an eventual outcome.

I'm adding 2+@; I might be getting 4, I might be getting 5 - but I think it's an understandable answer...

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. And I love the term "selected" 🤪🤣

And hey, guess what... out of the myriad of posdible permutations...

"The independent Judicial Committee that will hear the matter [of Tom Curry's RC] will be chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia), joined by former players John Langford (Australia) and Jamie Corsi (Wales)."

That's two out of the three - including the chairman - who let Owen Farell off the hook 😳

Call me cynical, but any money Tom Curry gets his RC downgraded due to sudden change of direction/height of the BC?!?
 

belladonna

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tl;dr There's just a 1 in 28 chance the Australian pair were picked at random for the DC.

I was wondering, what are the odds of this strange, erm, coincidence, happening by random chance...

Assuming that officials with affiliations to all teams in Pool D would be excluded because of potential/perceived vested interests, the stats look like this.

There are 10 Judicial Chairs in the pool. Discounting the two from England and the one from Samoa that leaves 7. (None from Chile, Argentina, or Japan.)

There are 12 Panel Members. Discounting the two from England and two with Samoa connections that leaves 8. (Again, none from Chile, Argentina, or Japan.)

According to my ropey old A Level maths, The chance of picking Adam Casselden as chair and John Langford as one of the two panel members at random is therefore just 3.6%.

So it's not beyond the bounds of possibility, but there's just a 1 in 28 chance it was a random pick.

(And if the Samoa members were not excluded, the odds would lengthen to 1 in 40.)

Judicial chairs:
Adam Casselden SC (Australia)*,
Jean-Noël Couraud (France)*,
Sir James Dingemans (England)*,
Jennifer Donovan (Ireland),
Roddy Dunlop KC (Scotland),
Mike Hamlin (England)*,
Brenda Heather-Latu (Samoa),
Nigel Hampton KC (New Zealand)*,
Shao-Ing Wang (Singapore)*, and
Rhian Williams (Wales)

Judicial panel members:
Donal Courtney (Ireland, former international referee)*,
Jamie Corsi (Wales, former player),
Becky Essex (England, played at Rugby World Cup 2010 and 2014),
Frank Hadden (Scotland, head coach at Rugby World Cup 2007)*,
Olly Kohn (former Wales international)*,
John Langford (former Australia international)*,
Leon Lloyd (former England international)*,
Mike Mika (New Zealand, played at Rugby World Cup 1995 and 1999 for Samoa),
Juan Pablo Spirandelli (Argentina, former international referee),
Stefan Terblanche (South Africa, played at Rugby World Cup 1999 and 2003)*,
Valeriu Toma (Romania, former international assistant referee)*, and
Aiolupotea Tonu'u Ofisa Junior Tonu'u (New Zealand, former Samoa dual international rugby and cricket and former New Zealand international)
 
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SimonSmith


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One weekend in and it's clear that the big disadvantage of the bunker system is that we don't get to hear the reasoning being applied to get to the different decisions. This lack of transparency in turn undermines confidence in the decisions
MyTV Feed, Stan, in Australia, allowed me to hear the message to Jaco Peyper, and consequently his messaging back to the team.
The language used was what you would expect to be used.
 

crossref


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MyTV Feed, Stan, in Australia, allowed me to hear the message to Jaco Peyper, and consequently his messaging back to the team.
The language used was what you would expect to be used.
When a YC has turned to RC I have heard a brief sentence. When a YC stays YC (as in the Argentina card) I heard nothing at all , and neither did our uk commentators.. did we miss it ?

(And a brief sentence is much less information than the back and forth between the MO team that we were used to hearing)
 

SimonSmith


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When a YC has turned to RC I have heard a brief sentence. When a YC stays YC (as in the Argentina card) I heard nothing at all , and neither did our uk commentators.. did we miss it ?

(And a brief sentence is much less information than the back and forth between the MO team that we were used to hearing)
I paraphrase, but it was along the lines of "low degree of danger" as he explained why it was staying yellow.
 

BikingBud


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Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. And I love the term "selected" 🤪🤣

And hey, guess what... out of the myriad of posdible permutations...

"The independent Judicial Committee that will hear the matter [of Tom Curry's RC] will be chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia), joined by former players John Langford (Australia) and Jamie Corsi (Wales)."

That's two out of the three - including the chairman - who let Owen Farell off the hook 😳

Call me cynical, but any money Tom Curry gets his RC downgraded due to sudden change of direction/height of the BC?!?
But there was a sudden change of height, the Argentina player was descending from a high speed jump!

Michael Jordan he was not!
 

Stu10


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Looking at this incident and the other head contact cases over the weekend, I'm feeling frustrated that protocol is overriding safety. I understand we need a framework, and that should drive consistency, but I don't like the position of "yes, he almost removed the blokes head, but he brushed his shoulder first, so that's all OK". The whole move the reduce the tackle height and bring in harsher sanctions for head contact was driven by safety concerns, but I don't feel like I'm seeing that in reality.

Look at the comments from Erasmus regarding the Kreil hit on Sco#8... If it isn’t direct head contact - if you took it a millisecond back you can see it was tackled on the ball and then he moved up after tackling on the ball, so we're very happy. Erasmus clearly has zero concern for the wellbeing of the Scottish player.
 

didds

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@Stu10 - bang on again.

my summary ... in the search for increased player safety the PTB are now trying to find every reason to not do that with micro reasons which head contact may be mitigated.

rather like pregnancy, you either have contact with the head or you dont.
 
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crossref


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Looking at this incident and the other head contact cases over the weekend, I'm feeling frustrated that protocol is overriding safety. I understand we need a framework, and that should drive consistency, but I don't like the position of "yes, he almost removed the blokes head, but he brushed his shoulder first, so that's all OK". The whole move the reduce the tackle height and bring in harsher sanctions for head contact was driven by safety concerns, but I don't feel like I'm seeing that in reality.

Look at the comments from Erasmus regarding the Kreil hit on Sco#8... If it isn’t direct head contact - if you took it a millisecond back you can see it was tackled on the ball and then he moved up after tackling on the ball, so we're very happy. Erasmus clearly has zero concern for the wellbeing of the Scottish player.
I worry that sitting in a bunker, detached from everybody, is likely to make them follow detailed protocols detached from common sense
 

didds

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I worry that sitting in a bunker, detached from everybody, is likely to make them follow detailed protocols detached from common sense
shurely shome mishtake ?
 

didds

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""It would be a lot easier on ourselves if we had 15 men on the field," he said. "What I would say is it's an invasion sport and, let's be honest, it was an accident."

Yes. I'm sure it was.
I'm equally sure the VAST majority of such cards ARE accidents.

Which is why its doubly daft, cos ACCIDENTS could be avoided by not staying stood upright in bl00dy contact "all the time"
 

BikingBud


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""It would be a lot easier on ourselves if we had 15 men on the field," he said. "What I would say is it's an invasion sport and, let's be honest, it was an accident."

Yes. I'm sure it was.
I'm equally sure the VAST majority of such cards ARE accidents.

Which is why its doubly daft, cos ACCIDENTS could be avoided by not staying stood upright in bl00dy contact "all the time"
It was not an accident, they are pure fate and unavoidable.

Incidents however would be avoided if they outlawed high speed lateral jumping, the Argentina player travels from within his own half and makes contact with Curry who is on the ground about 2-3 metres in his half. Curry is stationery and set for the tackle with a lowered body position but as the player descends his knees bend to absorb the landing and he contacts Curry's head.

As I keep saying:
  • Jumping appears to absolve the player of any responsibility and the authorities need to outlaw it before a serious life threatening injury occurs.
  • This is all outcome biased, the presence of blood determined the follow on action, and is not focussed on player safety.
 

didds

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I'll 100% agree with you generically over the issues of lateral jumping and talking the space anmd all of that - and this forum has discussed that ad nauseum for years etc of course.

I will disagree however regarding Curry having a "lowered body position" - a small flex in the knees and a brace doesn't cut that mustard for me. Yes its "lowered" - but by what - a couple of inches at most. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. because I wont be dissuaded from my viewpoint that that isnt sufficient "lowering"...

(still taken from youtube clip at point of impact)

 

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BikingBud


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Sorry @didds just can't buy that one.

We should not try to assess motion based on only one image it doesn't inform how far objects have moved. If we take a snap at one moment we can see Curry's head lower than all those around! And significantly below the ball carrier, note elbow of ball carrier in line with Curry's head.
Screenshot 2023-09-13 at 20.28.51.png

And then compare less than 1/2 second later, where Curry is even lower compared to other players around him, the issue is the jumper is descending, ball above Curry's head and in now in line with his head. Further as the jumper lands his legs compress, so clearly a sudden change of height, ball carriers elbow now in line with Curry's chest.

You cannot get any more dramatic change of height and as the jump was from the Argentina half into the same space that Curry was occupying where exactly is Curry supposed to go?
Screenshot 2023-09-13 at 20.30.17.png
And while you may consider the whole image is dynamic, often an issue in discerning relative and absolute motion perhaps consider the spectator in the yellow shirt as a fixed reference. In the first image Curry is just below the yellow shirt and blocking the person with long hair 2 rows below and in the second image Curry's head is below the mid point of that face and the Argentina players head has come down from in line with the red shirt and cap to well below the level Curry was previously at (Yellow shirt) both players have also moved forward, therefore the whole context is dynamic but who's is the greater shift? To my mind that is significant mitigation.

Must Curry lie on the floor or should we stop reckless jumping?

See DLV
9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the head, shoulder elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackleran opponent
 
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