[In-goal] Re-gathering the ball and touching down

[DocY]

The 'no clear separation' thread got me thinking about a similar (and I don't think too unrealistic) situation:

BC loses the ball forward as he's about to score, it doesn't touch anyone else and before it touches the ground, he gets a hand on top of it and keeps his hand there until the ball hits the ground.

Knock on or try?

 

[didds]

as per that other thread I expect a bell curve of opinions.

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

"... and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

Knock on. There are lots of examples of this - Matawalu's disallowed try in the World Cup Eng-Fij match springs to mind.

 

[DocY]

"... and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

That was really my point: would anyone consider the player to have caught the ball such a case - or been sufficiently close to having caught it that it's not a C&O knock on?

IIRC, in Matawalu's case I thought the ball hit the ground before he touched it again. Could be wrong though.

 

[Rich_NL]

That was really my point: can the player ever be considered to have caught the ball such a case - or been sufficiently close to having caught it that it's not a C&O knock on?

IIRC, in Matawalu's case I thought the ball hit the ground before he touched it again. Could be wrong though.

Hmm, I'd have to check, I thought he just lost it forward but I'm not sure now.

I agree that once the ball goes forward you need to demonstrate a C&O catch/control to avoid the scrum - to stretch the point, if the player threw the ball forward running and dived such that he touched the ball down over the line, that would be a KO/forward pass, right?

If the ball went forward and was gathered back up to the body, or lifted away from the ground and then touched down, C&O catch - you're demonstrating control.

 

[rugbyslave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPgA9lmE8Dw

 

[crossref]

The 'no clear separation' thread got me thinking about a similar (and I don't think too unrealistic) situation:

BC loses the ball forward as he's about to score, it doesn't touch anyone else and before it touches the ground, he gets a hand on top of it and keeps his hand there until the ball hits the ground.

Knock on or try?

I think you have to catch the ball to save the knock on -- BUT people can catch a ball with one hand, it is tricky but certainly possible, especialyl with a large hand, and the modern super-grippy surfaces that quality balls have. So I don't think this question can be answered in the abstract, I think you'd have to look at an actual incident and judge if he caught it, or just touched it. If his hand is in contact with the ball for some time, then presumably he must have established a grip on it, so it's a catch. But you'd have to see it.

 

[DocY]

I agree that once the ball goes forward you need to demonstrate a C&O catch/control to avoid the scrum - to stretch the point, if the player threw the ball forward running and dived such that he touched the ball down over the line, that would be a KO/forward pass, right?

If the ball went forward and was gathered back up to the body, or lifted away from the ground and then touched down, C&O catch - you're demonstrating control.

Sorry, I'm struggling to picture the scenario you're describing - I'm picturing a deliberate infringement, but I expect that's not what you mean.

 

[Rich_NL]

Sorry, I'm struggling to picture the scenario you're describing - I'm picturing a deliberate infringement, but I expect that's not what you mean.

Whether it's deliberate or not, it's an infringement

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS]Request
The FFR request a clarification for the following:

Following a kick ahead, the ball goes over the goal line and whilst it is still up in the air, a player places his hand on it and grounds it. However, before this player grounds the ball, his feet are in touch.

We would like to know:

• Whether Law 22.4 (g) applies only to a ball already on the ground before it is touched down or other situations as described above;
• Whether the situation, as described above, is equivalent to “carrying the ball”.

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

.
.
.
The designated members confirm that:

1. A try should not be awarded,
2. The player is considered to be carrying the ball as the ball is in the air when it is first played and,
3. Law 22.4 (g) only applies if the ball is on the ground. [/LAWS]

This clarification tells us that contact with the ball is defined as carrying it aka has caught it.

 

[ChrisR]

....... and, therefore, in the OP a ball lost forward but guided to the ground with the hand should result in a try.

Thanx for the clarification.

 

[OB..]

While I agree with the conclusion of that Clarification, I don't like the ratio decidendi. Having a hand in contact is not part of any normal definition of "catching". We have had discussions before about trying to avoid a knock-on by managing to knock the ball backwards before it hits the ground. This Clarification would mean any substantial contact constituted catching.

The point could have been made differently.
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.
[/FONT][...]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it [...][/FONT][/LAWS]The player did not knock or kick the ball, so the ball was out by being in contact with a player in touch.

 

[JSAK]

First of all , I agree with Didds in P2. Secondly, I would agree that placing a hand on the ball while it’s airborne and then purposely guiding the ball to the ground in a controlled fashion does not meet my definition of a “catch”, and therefore IMO seems to be at odds with the definition of a knock-on per Law 12, it does seem to be the criteria used in professional rugby. So, my response to the OP is: Try.

 

[Christy]

H rugby slave , for me i would whistle for knock on ,,blue 11 has ball in hand from a clean catch from a team mate , he with ball in hand goes to ground but looses the ball forward .
Its accidental knock on .
Scrum opposition . 5 meters back

 

[ChrisR]

...... and this is the same question, but in a different scenario, where a player loses the ball forward and, before it goes to ground scoops it back to a teammate.

That thread was not so long ago. I would allow that as I would allow the try. Control is a catch.

 

[Christy]

Hi marauder
Our society covered this scinario a few months back
A ball lost forward is deemed to be just that lost forward.( scrum opposition )
A ball lost forward but scooped back to player before ball hits floor is still lost forward ( scrum )
Similar to same is a ball lost forward , but before it hits floor , same player kicks ball ahead ,( scrum )

A player who catches a ball & fumbles catch & re catches is play on
Be interesting to here comments about same

 

[ChrisR]

I fully understand your reasoning but I take a different view.

A ball lost forward is still in play until it strikes the ground or another player so playing it back to a teammate keeps the ball in play and rewards the skill of the player.

I also believe that a ball lost forward then kicked should not be a knock-on. I don't expect to be in the majority.

Rugby is based on the principles of contest and continuity. I really like continuity.

 

[chbg]

A ball lost forward but scooped back to player before ball hits floor is still lost forward ( scrum )

Agreed with one exception:

A ball lost forward but scooped back to behind the point that it was lost forward, before ball hits floor, is play on.

 

[Phil E]

Agreed with one exception:

A ball lost forward but scooped back to behind the point that it was lost forward, before ball hits floor, is play on.

How can it be.

The law says if a ball is lost forward (which in this case you have said it is)....but then touches another player or the ground before the original player catches it.....is a knock on.

Which is exactly what your scenario is. The original lost forward player doesn't catch the ball....so its a knock on.
The bit about going backwards after going forwards is irrelevant.

 

[thepercy]

So, would anyone here consider a ball that is "scooped" back to be a very fast one handed catch and subsequent pass? Do you have to have possession for a period of time to be considered a catch?