[Ruck] Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

[Mat Youkee]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

I confess, as a number 9 Im a little reluctant to get my head down and jackal lest this should happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wn9mJxaDc

21st Paul Williams turns Heni Adams into a concertina. My question. Whats the penalty for?

 

[thepercy]

Re: Paul Williams hit on Heni Adams.

Shoulder charge/no wrap in the tackle/no bind in ruck/striking?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Re: Paul Williams hit on Heni Adams.

My question. Whats the penalty for?

Not releasing the ball by tackled player

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Re: Paul Williams hit on Heni Adams.

See those sort of low shoulder charge clear outs all the time at top level.
They never get penalised and this is the consequence

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Re: Paul Williams hit on Heni Adams.

See those sort of low shoulder charge clear outs all the time at top level.
They never get penalised and this is the consequence

I'd better look at video again, didn't see that

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

That YC for mine - Blue 5 dangerous entry to ruck/tackle zone

[LAWS]Law 10.4 (h) A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without
use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

Law 10.4 (k) Players must not charge into a ruck or maul without binding onto a player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]


ETA: Also, this was Paul Willemse, the South African/Namibian lock, not Paul Williams the Samoan midfield back

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

[LAWS]Law 10.4 (h) A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

Law 10.4 (k) Players must not charge into a ruck or maul without binding onto a player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Ah, 10.4 h requires use of arms not arm. From ref side of ruck #8 blue does appear to attempt to grasp with left arm, however the opposite angle reveals that no attempt was made with right arm.

Does one arm not count for 10.4h?

I do think rucking player does have his shoulders not lower than his waist.

From ref side i think it OK, and I think "original PK" PK is not releasing

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Well, I think his left arm is just there because it happens to be there. I don't think he makes any attempt whatsoever to grasp Adams, and with his right shoulder, that is just about a clear an example of a shoulder charge as you are ever likely to see.

Shoulder charging with one shoulder while flailing the other arm around in some feeble attempt to convince the referee that you are trying to grasp the opponent is not acceptable in my book. I expect players entering the tackle in order to clean out an opponent, to approach with BOTH arms in a position to grasp the opponent. This mitigates the impact of the point of the shoulder.


ETA

See how the white cleaner drives in with his arms in front? This is what I expect ruck/tackle cleaners to do. I have no problem with cleaners hitting the ruck/tackle at speed, with force, but there are safe ways of doing this, and there are dangerous ways. What Willemse did was very dangerous.

 

[Phil E]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Dangerous charging. PK and :noyc:

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

What Willemse did was very dangerous.

I agree,

should it be a red instead?

 

[ChrisR]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Ruck or tackle? Still in the tackle area? Is the PK for not releasing (that is my guess)? Are we back in general play as white picks up the ball?

Blue is clearly neither 'binding' nor 'grasping' so is liable for PK but his technique is little different from common practice so I don't see red. Any post game citing?

 

[crossref]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

isn't it covered by the May guidance ---

1. FOUL PLAY

High Tackles and Neck contact - Law 10.4(e)

Every time the head or the neck is deliberately grabbed or choked, the offending player runs the risk of receiving a yellow or red card

Cleanouts around the neck must be penalised

Match officials should work together to ensure that foul play is strictly penalised and that player welfare is paramount

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9

and/or the older 2010 guidance..

Charging into the ruck
February 2010
Players entering a ruck must do so in accordance with the Laws of the Game. Referees are reminded that appropriate binding is a requirement, and charging into a ruck is dangerous play and must be penalised as such.

The video clips below all show examples of illegal charges into the ruck.

Law text

16.2
JOINING A RUCK
(b)
A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

10.4
DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(g)
Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(h)
A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=2

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Not releasing the ball by tackled player

See those sort of low shoulder charge clear outs all the time at top level.
They never get penalised and this is the consequence

Ruck or tackle? Still in the tackle area? Is the PK for not releasing (that is my guess)? Are we back in general play as white picks up the ball?

The PK was for dangerous charging and Willemse was YC (note that the AR has hung his flag too) So PhilE was right on the money!

http://www.the42.ie/paul-willemse-yellow-card-bordeaux-2320620-Sep2015/
(NOTE: Some good comments too)

Blue is clearly neither 'binding' nor 'grasping' so is liable for PK but his technique is little different from common practice so I don't see red. Any post game citing?

No, so the CO must have decided that YC was sufficient.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

isn't it covered by the May guidance ---



http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9

and/or the older 2010 guidance..


http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=2

Err, what? Read your second quote again....

Charging into the ruck
February 2010
Players entering a ruck must do so in accordance with the Laws of the Game.

A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.

Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

...does this not cover it?


arrrgh! I should have read your post properly.

I read "isn't it" as "it isn't" because no question mark.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

The PK was for dangerous charging and Willemse was YC (note that the AR has hung his flag too) So PhilE was right on the money!

The AR flag did not come up til after shoving started and then was barely proudly up at 45 degree angle. I do not think this was as obvious to the game day officials as us on replay


The tackled player should not get away with 'not releasing" (this is root cause of entire situation).

Is it outlandish of me to think the ref should, yellow card dangerous player, show mark, indicate "not releasing", say #, then whistle again, indicate "charging" say #?


This keeps tally for addt yellow for 'not releasing" later in game.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Is it outlandish of me to think the ref should, yellow card dangerous player, show mark, indicate "not releasing", say #, then whistle again, indicate "charging" say #.

Watch the whole thing here...

https://youtu.be/5K1K5XdZ9mw?t=1538

My understanding of French is limited, but I do not hear anything about "not releasing" He mentions "Bleu Cinq" (Blue 5) a couple of times then calls the captains over and YC's Blue 5


At no stage does the referee ever give a signal for "not releasing"


In any case, the blue player on the ground released the ball within less that 2 second after Adams latched on, and had already released by the time Blue 5 charged into him.



EDIT: perhaps our resident Franco-Irish referee can translate?

 

[Phil E]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

So PhilE was right on the money!

I knew if I stuck at it long enough I would get one right eventually.
This refereeing lark is easy epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:

 

[didds]

Re: Paul Willemse hit on Heini Adams.

Ah, 10.4 h requires use of arms not arm. From ref side of ruck #8 blue does appear to attempt to grasp with left arm, however the opposite angle reveals that no attempt was made with right arm.

Does one arm not count for 10.4h?

surely one arm has to be sufficient otherwise you could never join a ruck one the edge of the rear player. If therre wa only one rear player (CFR a number 8 at a scrum) you would hard pressed to bind both arms from shoulder to wrist !

didds