Ref and TJ not on same page

Balones said:
I would say the procedure that is generally adopted in RFU land is as good as any.
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Whereas I'd suggest the NRL process is better.
Its a process that has been well thought out to achieve the best result.
RU, by contrast, does stuff because that's how its always been done
 
Sorry Dickie, can’t accept your last sentence. When I started there was no procedure! Even I am not old enough to have always been around.:)
 
and of course what balones says is spot on. The beauty of this forum is we can discuss to the nth degree something someone has seen.

but its possibly the only time in any of our lives we will ever see/hear it! (Its a bit of a bummer if ti decides a season's campaign for one team though!)
 
Balones said:
When I started there was no procedure!
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I doubt that that is true. I expect the procedure was (and still very much is):
1. player scores try
2. ARs/TJs run behind posts
3. ARs/TJs stick flags up if kick successful

or was there a time something else was done?
 
Dickie E said:
I doubt that that is true. I expect the procedure was (and still very much is):
1. player scores try
2. ARs/TJs run behind posts
3. ARs/TJs stick flags up if kick successful

or was there a time something else was done?
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That was about it. ‘Procedure’ to me implies something a bit more formal. I’m sure if OB.. was here he’d tell if there was anything before conversions etc.
 
Why use both ARs/TJs?

Aussie Rules manages just fine with one goal umpire.
 
I was a member of the RFU TJ panel when it was created in 1990. I can't now recall what official advice/instruction we received, but we used to stand with one TJ fairly close to the post nearer to the point of the kick and the other further back . We ALWAYS agreed between ourselves before raising our flags, or not, and I can not ever remember a problem between ourselves or with the referee's view.
 
dickell said:
I was a member of the RFU TJ panel when it was created in 1990. I can't now recall what official advice/instruction we received, but we used to stand with one TJ fairly close to the post nearer to the point of the kick and the other further back . We ALWAYS agreed between ourselves before raising our flags, or not, and I can not ever remember a problem between ourselves or with the referee's view.
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How did you possibly agree ? Is the younger TJ supposed to the yield to the elder ? Or what ?
 
crossref said:
How did you possibly agree ? Is the younger TJ supposed to the yield to the elder ? Or what ?
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They said they "always agreed....before raising flags, or not".

Both flags up or if not in agreement then it's a word with the ref in the centre....that's the way we do it in IRFUland.
 
Decorily said:
They said they "always agreed....before raising flags, or not".

Both flags up or if not in agreement then it's a word with the ref in the centre....that's the way we do it in IRFUland.
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I think his “or not” was referring to raising the flags, not being in agreement.

crossref said:
How did you possibly agree ? Is the younger TJ supposed to the yield to the elder ? Or what ?
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In my experience, if it’s in question whether the ball was between the posts or not, the TJ/AR that is standing at the post nearest where the ball travels makes the call. They look over and give a nod or a shake if the head and the TJ/AR on the other post follows the lead.
 
Your ARs or position to see different aspects of the shot at goal. Both posts / Clearing the bar. The position so both posts are covered. If AR 1 says "Over from my view point" AR2 either says "Over from mine" in which case both put flags up or "not over from mine" in which games both flags stay down.

It's not one conceding to the other. Rather it is simply :

Both say Yes = flags go up.
Both say No = flags stay down.
One Yes and one No = Flags stay down.

With Club TJs You do sometimes get a disagreement, so I watch closely and go with my "casting vote" if needs be. However, if the kicker's TJ keeps his flag down I go with him. Any complaining from the kicker's team is met with: "Your TJ said it missed, discuss it with him later!".
 
If one AR is certain the kick was good, and the other AR is certain it wasn't then
. I can't see any method to get them to agree.
. Agreeing means one or other of them going along with a signal they they think is wrong
. I dont see any benefit in that at all
. Much better for the two ARs to be honest with the ref, tell the ref what has happened, and allowing the ref to make the deciding call
 
Marc Wakeham said:
It's not one conceding to the other. Rather it is simply :

Both say Yes = flags go up.
Both say No = flags stay down.
One Yes and one No = Flags stay down.
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Ie Yes concedes to No.

Exactly the above happened to me once.
I thought the kick went over, but both flags stayed firmly down (society ARs, colleagues).
I went with them, no score.

Of course it ended up a 1 point game

I was not happy after the game to discover what that the ARs had done. The silly protocol of ARs always agreeing led to the wrong decision, and to the wrong outcome

They should have just told me they didn't agree
 
crossref said:
Ie Yes concedes to No.

Exactly the above happened to me once.
I thought the kick went over, but both flags stayed firmly down (society ARs, colleagues).
I went with them, no score.

Of course it ended up a 1 point game

I was not happy after the game to discover what that the ARs had done. The silly protocol of ARs always agreeing led to the wrong decision, and to the wrong outcome

They should have just told me they didn't agree
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Well if you thought it went over then you should have awarded it!
 
Decorily said:
Well if you thought it went over then you should have awarded it!
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Yes.

But it was hard .. two colleagues, both of them flag firmly down.. (I had no idea one of them actually had thought it was good)

If it ever happens again (unlikely) hopefully i would go with my gut .. illustrating why the protocol is so bad
 
Dickie E said:
maybe also in similar situation is not blow, call time off after ball grounded, have a chat to TJ, then either award lineout or try. Of course, if the players all stop when they see flag up, you have no choice but to go with lineout
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Their problem... play to the whistle, not the TJ's flag!
 
I've reffed over 500 games and adjudicated maybe 2000+ shots at goal.
I really don't know why the ARs go behind the posts. I'm quite capable of adjudicating success or failure by myself
 
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