Ref and TJ not on same page

[Phil E]

If I am going to override the TJs like this (and I have done), then I will call over both captains and explain why.

 

[crossref]

If I am going to override the TJs like this (and I have done), then I will call over both captains and explain why.

Yes, that's what I did

.. and was secretly pleased when we went on to restart and the red captain who was also 10, and kicking so next to me said "that was well managed thanks"

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

We don’t not agree. We work one up one back and post each. We look at the flight and if it’s veering towards one or other post or falling short we’ll claim it as “LLP’s call/post” and the other will wait for a yes or no and match accordingly.

My mantra is DFIU and don’t hang the referee out to dry.

 

[crossref]

We don’t not agree. We work one up one back and post each. We look at the flight and if it’s veering towards one or other post or falling short we’ll claim it as “LLP’s call/post” and the other will wait for a yes or no and match accordingly.

My mantra is DFIU and don’t hang the referee out to dry.

I don't understand how this actually works .. if one of you thinks it missed, and the other thinks it went through, then how do you decide which person over rules the other ?

I also don't see why this would be a good idea .. it's pretty much what happened in my case, one TJ who was doubtful allowed himself to be overruled by the other, and they both flagged the wrong result.

IMO that made it more difficult for me. I had to overrule both of them.

It would have been easier for me had one flag gone up and one flag stayed down, then everyone watching would have instantly understood that it was the refs call.

IMO signalling something you are not sure is true is actually what hangs the ref out to dry !

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Both flags go up or neither flag goes up. If we decide it’s my post/call then my partner will leave it to me or vice versa. I will say “yes” or “no” and my partner will raise their flag (or not) with me or vice versa. It’s not a referendum. It works most of the time.

 

[crossref]

Both flags go up or neither flag goes up. If we decide it’s my post/call then my partner will leave it to me or vice versa. I will say “yes” or “no” and my partner will raise their flag with me or vice versa. It’s not a referendum. It works most of the time.

Well, for me that it's a mistaken approach, for the reasons in last post

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Well, for me that it's a mistaken approach, for the reasons in last post

Suit yourself.

 

[Locke]

Well, for me that it's a mistaken approach, for the reasons in last post

I have always been coached and performed it as LLP describes and it makes sense to me. I only have a clear view of one post (the one I’m standing under). If my angle makes it questionable for me if the ball was inside or outside the other post, I’m not going to guess. I’m going to wait for the head nod or head shake from the other AR who was standing under that post and had the much better view. Then we raise or leave our flags together, presenting a consistent and confident message to the referee and the spectators. It seems very simple and straightforward to me?

 

[Balones]

Well, for me that it's a mistaken approach, for the reasons in last post

It is the approach taken at the panel and above levels of the game. It is also the approach taken by my society when we are trainjng our ARs.

 

[crossref]

I have always been coached and performed it as LLP describes and it makes sense to me. I only have a clear view of one post (the one I’m standing under). If my angle makes it questionable for me if the ball was inside or outside the other post, I’m not going to guess. I’m going to wait for the head nod or head shake from the other AR who was standing under that post and had the much better view. Then we raise or leave our flags together, presenting a consistent and confident message to the referee and the spectators. It seems very simple and straightforward to me?

But then why not stand in a different place so that you can both make a judgement?
Your whole job is to judge whether the ball goes through the posts or not .. FFS stand in a place from where you can do that job !

 

[chbg]

Well, for me that it's a mistaken approach, for the reasons in last post

You are discussing different scenarios - LLP with trained TJs/ARS; you with club voluntolds. In your case you just have to go with what you have, and don't rely on them to provide the perfect result. Ideally they give you the right result, and you can humour them by waiting until they have signalled before confirming your own decision.

 

[crossref]

It is the approach taken at the panel and above levels of the game. It is also the approach taken by my society when we are trainjng our ARs.

I know, and I think it needs a fundamental rethink. In all other aspects a golden rule for MOs is 'dont guess' but in this one area it's encouraged

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

It is the approach taken at the panel and above levels of the game. It is also the approach taken by my society when we are trainjng our ARs.

I am a National Panel AR so I suppose the answer is yes.

At the end of the day me, my fellow AR and the referee are there to try and get the right decisions as a To3.

When I referee I will have two TJs (like most people) who, if they are club reps (as they mostly are) one of whom wants the kick to miss and one of who wants it to be successful. If you're lucky you'll get the guy who does it every week for the club and is as honest as the day is long and if you're unlucky you'll get the disinterested replacement(s) who'd rather be talking with their mates about how many pints they're going to have tonight.

I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of the kick but I want the decision to be correct and I don't want to put the referee in the invidious position of dealing with two people who are really only there to do a couple of (important) jobs.

 

[crossref]

You are discussing different scenarios - LLP with trained TJs/ARS; you with club voluntolds. In your case you just have to go with what you have, and don't rely on them to provide the perfect result. Ideally they give you the right result, and you can humour them by waiting until they have signalled before confirming your own decision.

I have been stung by society colleagues as well.
In a cup final no less, they signalled miss when, in fact, I found out much later, one thought it was a miss but the other had thought it went over.
Like LLP they thought that the most important thing was to make the same signal (more important than reaching the right result)

I thought it went over.

To my shame I went with my colleagues BECAUSE they were colleagues. I was less experienced then, less experienced than them

I really wish they just found a way to tell me "sorry, we disagreed, it's your call" rather than hang me out to dry with a confident wrong decision

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I know, and I think it needs a fundamental rethink. In all other aspects a golden rule for MOs is 'dont guess' but in this one area it's encouraged

You're setting off on one of your well worn paths which usually results in PhilE locking the thread. You've had your answer as to how it's done in Nat 2 North when I'm doing it so please carry on your one man crusade to change the status quo without me. Cheers.

 

[Decorily]

....... It works most of the time.

Indeed!

 

[Balones]

Nobody is saying that the process that LLP has outlined is perfect. It has generally been accepted that it is better than any other process at the moment. What other process would be better?
It’s a different matter if you are dealing with club TJs or society ARs that haven’t had any guidance/training. In those circumstances the referee has to decide what has happened, regardless of the number of flags up or down. At panel level the ARs are paid and expected to be professional in their approach and concentration, there is also comns with the ref. In such circumstances a referee would find it very difficult to overrule the ARs. Most problems occur when rushed decisions are made. I would like to think that panel officials don’t rush their decisions.

 

[Dickie E]

I know, and I think it needs a fundamental rethink. In all other aspects a golden rule for MOs is 'dont guess' but in this one area it's encouraged

Its not a guess. Its having confidence in your partner's decision

 

[jdeagro]

I do think there's some merit in having a different protocol for TJs, who have a stake in the game and opposing goals, vs ARs who have the same goals in mind with each other. Perhaps uncertainty among TJs should have some indication so the ref can sort it out. Whereas uncertainty by the ARs goes to the one who had better sight on the call.

 

[Dickie E]

Maybe the TJs shouldn't even go behind sticks. In all my years I've rarely needed their input. If I can judge a drop goal on the run I can judge a PK and conversion