Releasing the Ball Carrier

[Iron_Lung]

I think this one has been done already but wanted some interpretations:

Scenario 1: Defending player tackles high and attempts to rip the ball free. Maul forms around them. Ball carrier gets his knee to the ground. In my interpretation, as the maul has formed, ball carrier must release but there is no obligation for the defending player (still on his feet) to release the ball because the maul has formed. Is this correct?

Scenario 2: Defending player tackles high and attempts to rip the ball. Ball carrier goes to ground with defending player still holding onto the ball (no maul formed). Can the defending player (still on his feet) continue to try and rip the ball, and is the ball carrier obligated to release the ball, or does the defending player have to release first, allowing ball carrier to exercise options, before they can go back in for the ball, assuming they don't transgress any other law?

 

[Drift]

1: Maul is formed, 1 player is on the ground and needs to release and the 'tackler' does not.
2: Tackler needs to release and go through the gate before going for the ball.

 

[Iron_Lung]

I agree, but I had another ref the other day who was adamant that the player only has to release the player, not the ball when the ball carrier goes to ground. If they already have hands on it via the tackle they can continue to try and rip it even if the ball carrier has gone to ground...

 

[Drift]

Personally I would err on the side of the tackled player.

 

[Deeps]

I agree, but I had another ref the other day who was adamant that the player only has to release the player, not the ball when the ball carrier goes to ground. If they already have hands on it via the tackle they can continue to try and rip it even if the ball carrier has gone to ground...

In case 2 the ball carrier has gone to ground but as there is no tackler by definition (as the opposition player in contact with the ball has not gone to ground), arguably there is no tackle if the only contact is via the ball and the ball carrier is not held. The player on his feet thus has rights to the ball which the ball carrier must cede.

 

[Dixie]

Scenario 1: Defending player tackles high and attempts to rip the ball free. Maul forms around them. Ball carrier gets his knee to the ground. In my interpretation, as the maul has formed, ball carrier must release but there is no obligation for the defending player (still on his feet) to release the ball because the maul has formed. Is this correct?

Why do you want the ball carrier to release the ball? Answer: because he has gone to ground. For me, this brings in Law 17.6(g) into play:

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

So it's an unsuccessful end to the maul. If you argue that the ball carrier must cease being a ball carrier by releasing the moment his knee hits the ground, how does 17.6(g) ever get brought into play?

Scenario 2: Defending player tackles high and attempts to rip the ball. Ball carrier goes to ground with defending player still holding onto the ball (no maul formed). Can the defending player (still on his feet) continue to try and rip the ball, and is the ball carrier obligated to release the ball, or does the defending player have to release first, allowing ball carrier to exercise options, before they can go back in for the ball, assuming they don't transgress any other law?

The defender must release both ball carrier and ball. Law 15.6(c)

(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier.

 

[Phil E]

I agree with Dixie.

1. Ball immediately available, or scrum turnover.
2. Release ball carrier and ball before going in for the ball through the gate (as he is not a tackler).

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Scenario 2: Defending player tackles high and attempts to rip the ball. Ball carrier goes to ground with defending player still holding onto the ball (no maul formed). Can the defending player (still on his feet) continue to try and rip the ball, and is the ball carrier obligated to release the ball, or does the defending player have to release first, allowing ball carrier to exercise options, before they can go back in for the ball, assuming they don't transgress any other law?

Dixie's answer

The defender must release both ball carrier and ball. Law 15.6(c)

In scenario 2, Did a tackle take place? Wasn't there a law ruling that addressed this?

 

[Phil E]

In scenario 2, Did a tackle take place? Wasn't there a law ruling that addressed this?

Ball carrier was held and went to ground.

It's a tackle without a tackler.

 

[andyscott]

In scenario 2, Did a tackle take place? Wasn't there a law ruling that addressed this?

He was brought to ground (the player effected a tackle without being a tackler)

 

[didds]

2) happened today in EvS did it not? Ref pinged the defender who ripped the ball from the grounded player (can;t remember who did what to whom now).
Defender though was "tackle assist" IIRC.

Commentators were of the opinion the rip was legal/

I felt (probably wrongly) the ref was right, but I may have mangled my understanding.

didds

 

[Drift]

Nah Poite got that right. Even though he was a 'tackler assist' he still needed to create "clear air" by releasing the tackled player before going back for the ball.

Thought it was funny BCM said Poite had got it wrong when he quite clearly hadn't.