restart to whom?

crossref


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I once refereed a national youth semi-final in which a player was tip-tackled, and in the time I took to scan for incoming potential brawlers managed to get up at knock his tackler out. I didn't have the luxury of TJs let alone ARs, but both sets of coaches confirmed that it was the tackler who was knocked out and the BC who decked him. After the stoppage we only had two minutes available to go, and both sets of coaches insisted the game not end on a low. Both were happy with attacking scrum as a restart.

Did you issue any cards? (If I understand you right you didn't see the ko punch.. so hard to card for)

I am not sure that two minutes of play would have made much difference to the way that everyone felt, it still sounds like a regrettable ending to a an important game - but I agree that a game should be played out if possilbe.
 

Browner

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After the second retaliation and melee the restart is almost immaterial. Get the miscreants off the pitch and the worst offenders with immediate red.

At that point I'd be OK with a scrum restart but I think a PK for the original offence is better.

Both, better and correct. No basis or sense for a scrum.
 

Browner

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I specifically said this was for a U17 national semifinal in which there was NOT a brawl. There had also been 5 minutes stoppage. The coaches made it clear to me that the boys wanted to finish the game (it was close enough that a score by the losing side might have put them ahead).

I don't care whether the 'boys' want to finish the game or not. Nor for that matter do i care if the coaches want to finish on a positive note or not. For a match at that level, play to the game time on the clock & deal with offenders as is required irrespective of the game score, part of the learning for players (& coaches) is that players actions carry match consequences ........they're not u10's anymore.

If an U17 knocks out an opponent then he won't get empathy from me, he gets a RC and a chance to mitigate at his hearing (where he might be on his 12th offence of the season, the DisComm have that data , not the referee )
 

The Fat


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I think Rushforth was planning to blow full time after the incident (my interpretation, happy to be corrected). The coaches didn't want to end on a sour note.

Not sure if this was in response to my previous post Dickie but several posters have indicated that they would check to see where they are in proximity to goal posts and that the location may have a bearing on their decision i.e. they don't want to award a PK to a particular team if it means they could score from it (and possibly win the game because of that kick).
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think decisions to award PK should be influenced by a team's proximity to the goal posts. There is either a PK offence or there isn't.
Some have said they would penalise the most serious offence. Fine. Hand out the cards and award the PK.
Some have said they would penalise the retaliation and overturn the original PK as it is likely that the retaliation was the spark for all that followed. Fine. Hand out the cards and award the PK.
What I wouldn't like to see is a referee's thought process be, "Hmmmm. I would normally overturn the original PK and ping the retaliator or the 3rd man in, but the attacking team could score points from a shot at goal so I think I'll go with a scrum. No wait, maybe I'll just ping the last offence so that the defenders get the PK and then I'm guaranteed that no-one will score and alter the result from my decision. Is that a squirrel?"
 

Rushforth


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I think Rushforth was planning to blow full time after the incident (my interpretation, happy to be corrected). The coaches didn't want to end on a sour note.

You are 100% correct.

The incident happened 7 minutes before the end of the 2x20 minute game, and it took 5 minutes to resolve all issues (most importantly, the victim of retaliation). We were on a strict time schedule with semi-finals and final on the same day, for three different age-groups. Probably 3/4th place too. We did run touch for the finals.

I still think one reason there wasn't a brawl might be that everybody was so shocked it was the ball-carrier that got right back up who retaliated.

My point in bringing it up is not to point out my own incompetence in missing the incident (I did see it happen out of the corner of my eye), but rather that in a situation where there has been no previous foul play whatsoever, and where there have been "equally bad" offences, both coaches were happy to continue with a scrum. It was their (combined) choice to finish the game, my decision that the restart would be a scrum (which I informed them of).

But to return to brawls: (almost?) always a penalty, I think we are all agreed. But they are incredibly difficult to get right.
 

ChrisR

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I think that it's a given that there can be infinite variations in this scenario and "one size fits all" doesn't apply.

Here are four scenarios that could produce four different restarts:

1. C & O foul play, such as tip tackle, followed by escalating pushing, punches then melee. Issue cards as necessary but return to the C & O foul play for the PK. Too arbitrary to try to pick first or worst.

2. C & O foul play followed by C & O retaliation punch then a melee. PK against the first C & O retaliation.

3. As above but with C & O worst offender such as kick to player on ground. PK against worst offender.

4. No C & O foul play but game stops as fight breaks out with no C & O first offender, no clear retaliation and no worst offence? Then restart with a scrum. Valid in law. Putting 16 large and angry men in close proximity? Yes, get it over with in a controlled scenario.

I think that proximity to the post should not figure into it.
 
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SimonSmith


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I agree that proximity to the posts doesn't affect my decision making, albeit it's been a while since once of those happened in one of my games.

I'll penalize the worst offence, whether it's the first, third or last. What is important is how you handle the process itself, from initially seeing it start to the restart itself.

Maintaining calm, being observant, taking notes if appropriate. Separating the teams. Talking to the captains, and the individual players one by one - don't send them both off at the same time, just in case they tart swinging at each other on the way off - and being precise and deliberate in words and action. Take your time.

You do that, and give the penalty. Most folks will buy it.
 

Browner

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if you assess by 'severity' then you aren't discouraging 'brawling', its akin to licensing a free 'lesser' shot & could inadvertently be brawl 'encouraging' !

Photographing a fire hot spot won't prevent the next fire.

Referees deal with Offences, retaliators must know they risk decision reversal, even if they've personally been wronged en route.
 

Rushforth


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if you assess by 'severity' then you aren't discouraging 'brawling', its akin to licensing a free 'lesser' shot & could inadvertently be brawl 'encouraging' !

Photographing a fire hot spot won't prevent the next fire.

Referees deal with Offences, retaliators must know they risk decision reversal, even if they've personally been wronged en route.

I agree 100% in theory. Practice is more difficult, especially in the absence of TMO, or even just ARs, which most of us do not have the luxury of.

Players have to accept that the referee made the right decision, because the referee is always right BY LAW. Brawls often start with an incident which only a trailing AR should see.

Brawls should be rare. They are in my experience, and I would hope also in the experience of most grass-roots referees. Unlike for example the ruck - in my experience the hardest thing for both new and experienced (but fat and slow) referees to improve at, they don't occur often enough that we can practice our skills of observation.

What I'm getting at is that if you know what the original offence was, and who was the initial retaliator (not a word?), then it is fine to go with the "Law" of a single reversal, even if for sake of argument a player later gets kicked in the head and gets RCd whilst the first two "only" got YCd.

I agree with SimonSmith that handling the incident - both trying to de-escalate it and mentally note numbers and offences - is more important than getting the right call, because the players not only have to accept it, but because both captains know it was not a refereeing error that caused the brawl in the first place. (Yes, perceived poor refereeing can contribute to the risk of a brawl happening, but it will usually start with an incident in the flow of play).
 

OB..


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if you assess by 'severity' then you aren't discouraging 'brawling', its akin to licensing a free 'lesser' shot & could inadvertently be brawl 'encouraging' !
You discourage brawling by issuing relevant cards and by talking to the captains.

Referees deal with Offences
, retaliators must know they risk decision reversal, even if they've personally been wronged en route.
As a general principle that cannot possibly be right. The retaliation might be a relatively minor response to a serious foul. How could you RC the originator and award a PK against the retaliator?
 

Ian_Cook


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I flatly reject any general idea of giving the PK against the original offence. It must be a matter of judgement, not rote.

"Blue tackles Red ball carrier high" - PK against blue

"Red team mate comes in and punches Blue player" - Reversed, now PK against Red and :norc: puncher

"Blue player comes in and kicks Red player on ground" - Reversed again, now PK against Blue and :norc: kicker.

Restart with PK against Blue


Question: Is your restart PK for the original offence, or the last act of foul play?

No matter what you think or say, it looks the same from the outside.

IMO, when there is retaliation for foul play, its wrong to think that the original foul play doesn't matter and should not be sanctioned. If possible, sanction all three offences, not just the two acts of retaliation..... PK + Card + Card and restart with the original PK is an effective and equitable way to do this, otherwise the original infringer has gotten away with it.
 

Browner

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You discourage brawling by issuing relevant cards and by talking to the captains.

No OB, That's dealing with the afterbrawl, I'm talking about setting a standard of brawl prevention , if all players know that "retaliation = reversal consequence" then they should be mindful about commencing.

As I've said previously, blind eye empathy might easily be adopted ( punch, no i only saw a hard shove! ) for a player who returns a minor retaliation to his fouler, its likely that his response is curtailed by knowing how retaliation is treated, but that wasn't the OP.

Early on in my refereeing I experienced a mass brawl in one of my matches, it was a steep learning curve indeed, and since then my 'robust' reversal approach (alligned to better preventatives) has seen no repeats , IMO its a straightforward and easily applied methodology.

It's in Law for a good reason, conversely 'severity exceptions' aren't, for similar good reasons.
 

ChrisR

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So, Browner, you think that the risk of getting a PK reversed is a stronger deterrent than a RC, his team playing short, missing the next game and a possible ban?

Yep, that's scary. Your thinking, that is.
 

Dickie E


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Lots of good thoughts on this topic. In summary we have:
1. penalise against the original offence
2. penalise against the first act of retribution
3. penalise against the most serious act of foul play
4. penalise against the most frequent acts of foul play (ie 3 punches out trumps 2 punches)
5. penalise against the team that has most likelihood of kicking a penalty
6. restart with a scrum

Did I miss anything?
 

menace


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Yep.....
7. Anything BUT NOT a scrum.

...why would you put two hothead and irate packs close together in a pushing contest after just having a punch up/melee?? You're giving them an open invitation to have another crack.
 

Browner

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So, Browner, you think that the risk of getting a PK reversed is a stronger deterrent than a RC, his team playing short, missing the next game and a possible ban?

Yep, that's scary. Your thinking, that is.

Whilst that might amuse you , That's not what I said, #dorkyresponse!
 

Browner

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IMO, when there is retaliation for foul play, its wrong to think that the original foul play doesn't matter and should not be sanctioned. If possible, sanction all three offences, not just the two acts of retaliation..... PK + Card + Card and restart with the original PK is an effective and equitable way to do this, otherwise the original infringer has gotten away with it.

Re this comment

No, the original infringer hasnt gotten away with it - his offence is merely superceeded by a retaliators 'dangerous' offence. If you deny that you've removed the whole purpose of 10.4(l) from Law

what else did the Law writers expected when they specified.....
[LAWS]. 10.4 [FONT=fs_blakeregular](l) [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Retaliation. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not retaliate.

Even if an opponent is infringing the Laws, a player must not do anything that is dangerous to the opponent *
[/FONT]
Sanction: Penalty kick[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT]
[/LAWS]
*my bold

Infringements (or worse than that low tide mark) are protected from dangerous retaliation, It's nonsensical to think it was deliberately written this way in error.
 

crossref


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menace:300771 said:
Yep.....
7. Anything BUT NOT a scrum.

...why would you put two hothead and irate packs close together in a pushing contest after just having a punch up/melee?? You're giving them an open invitation to have another crack.

PK White
We'll take a scrum please, Sir
Bugger
 

ChrisR

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For those scenarios of C & O initial foul play, C & O violent retaliation or C & O worst offender I'd advocate an appropriate PK.

However, when none of the above exist, such as a rumble that starts away from the ball (and out of your sight), then it would be unfair to assign blame and award a PK. Restart with a scrum to team in possession etc, etc.

Better to have the next engagement in the controlled confines of a scrum than have a tap penalty a mass clash. If there has been punches thrown from both sides those players aren't going to be on the pitch.
 

FlipFlop


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I've always been amused by the "don't start with a scrum" advice. I see the rationale - don't put 16 players close together - it might all break out again.

But no thought given to:

PK to one team, who kick to touch, and have a lineout, which has 16 players in relative confinement, which are harder to police, where more damage can be done to the opposition.

PK to one team who opt for a scrum....

PK to one team, who tap and go, immediately forming a ruck, where "revenge" can also be easily gained out of sight of the ref.

I fully get the "don't give a scrum for a PK offence", but the rationale normally given is so bogus. Why not just say - there are PK offences, so you award a PK?
 
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