[Law] Rolling the ball forward

[DocY]

Bit of a strange, entirely theoretical question I was asked yesterday:

If a player were to place the ball on the ground and roll it forward once it's already there, what would you do?

He was arguing that it wasn't technically a knock on.

My thoughts were that it was some sort of infringement, the only question being whether it's a scrum or a penalty.

 

[crossref]

Professional scrum halves do this at the back of many rucks ....

 

[Pinky]

I presume you mean rolling it forward with his hand? If so I would be inclined to blow that as a knock on - it has gone forward from his hand and he hasn't regathered it before it hit the ground - unless I though he was trying to prevent the opposition playing the ball or to dupe the opposition into an offence when it would be a penalty

 

[beckett50]

If he is short of the goal line and rolls the ball immediately and is still in possession then not a problem for me.
The problem comes - for the player - when he reaches that point where the ball leaves his hand, unless he is manipulating it by 'walking' the fingers. In which case it is easy for an opposition player to take the ball from his hand.

 

[Christy]

If a player was to place the ball on ground & then roll it forward with his HAND..??

For me the player has clearly got / had possession of the ball ... ( before it gets placed on floor ) so we are still in open play ..

If ball was at back of a scrum / ruck / maul .
It could be conceived as a clear act of obstruction / dummying opposition into ball being out from a ruck / scrum / maul ,,the only question for me would be is it accidental obstruction or deliberate ..

I would probably if i felt it was a deliberate act of obstruction being gained .from ball being put back on floor & rolled forwatd
Just blow up & award penalty .

If i felt it was accidental , i would blow whistle & award opposition scrum .( not sure how a player can accidentaly place ball on floor & accidentally roll it forward )

Remember at a tackle & covered in law , the ball carrier can place ball forward ( as did all blacks WOMEN world cup player did last year , that joy neville refereed i think was the final ,,and a team mate came through gate picked up ball & scored a try )

However a ball carrier can only roll a ball backwards & not forward .
Had all black player had rolled ball forward ,,the try would of been disallowed & im sure a penalty would of been offered to opposition

 

[crossref]

gosh watch the scrum half in professional rugby at the ruck, especially when they are going to box kick - it's become common place for them yo use one hand to roll the ball back along the ground, and carefully position it next to the rear foot. Then they let go, then they pick it up and kick it.

Often in the positioning stage they roll it forward a bit as they get it just right

 

[Christy]

gosh watch the scrum half in professional rugby at the ruck, especially when they are going to box kick - it's become common place for them yo use one hand to roll the ball back along the ground, and carefully position it next to the rear foot. Then they let go, then they pick it up and kick it.

Often in the positioning stage they roll it forward a bit as they get it just right

Hi cross , yes i see that in domestic game also ..
And generally im not to bothered about same

Docys question though is different to this .
He says if a ball carrier was to put the ball back onto the ground ( thats my take any way )
Am i reading his post wrong perhaps .

Oy docy ,,can you clarify a bit more .
Thankz

 

[ChrisR]

From 2018 Laws

[LAWS]7. Tackled players must immediately:
a. Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing
the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction.
[/LAWS]

Is rolling 'pushing'?

 

[crossref]

From 2018 Laws

[LAWS]7. Tackled players must immediately:
a. Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing
the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction.
[/LAWS]

Is rolling 'pushing'?

Good call

 

[Jolly Roger]

I presume you mean rolling it forward with his hand? If so I would be inclined to blow that as a knock on - it has gone forward from his hand and he hasn't regathered it before it hit the ground - unless I though he was trying to prevent the opposition playing the ball or to dupe the opposition into an offence when it would be a penalty

I agree with Pinky. It seems an obvious interpretation of the law and I expect that 99.9% of players and spectators would agree with the call.

 

[didds]

Of course its a knock on.

didds

 

[Cross]

Bit of a strange, entirely theoretical question I was asked yesterday:

If a player were to place the ball on the ground and roll it forward once it's already there, what would you do?

He was arguing that it wasn't technically a knock on.

My thoughts were that it was some sort of infringement, the only question being whether it's a scrum or a penalty.

Excuse my ignorance, but what was his rationale to argue it was, technically, not a knock on?

You made me check the definition.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

He is losing possession and the ball goes forward, end off! If the rolling fwd was intentional, pk, if it's not scrum.

 

[tim White]

If the player has not lost contact with the ball I would suggest they are still in possession. TV rugby annoys me; When a scrum-half moves the ball with his hand or foot I perceive that as taking possession and the ruck/scum should be called use it/over.

 

[crossref]

Quins v Bath today we had .. at a scrum .. the Bath scrum half using his foot to position the ball so that .. the #8 could more easily pick up.

Is that ok ?

 

[Christy]

Quins v Bath today we had .. at a scrum .. the Bath scrum half using his foot to position the ball so that .. the #8 could more easily pick up.

Is that ok ?

Hi cross .
Although i didnt see the game .
It sounds odd ..was the scrum not going anywhere , as in stationary ,,
Because if it was moving forwards or backwards , it would of been very akward for scrum half to do this ...if the scrum was stationary , it would of been just as easy for the nr 8 to use his own foot ..

Cant say ive seen this before ..

 

[menace]

Quins v Bath today we had .. at a scrum .. the Bath scrum half using his foot to position the ball so that .. the #8 could more easily pick up.

Is that ok ?

I say "no":
Law references

[LAWS]Any player within the scrum may play the ball but only with their feet or lower legs and they must not lift the ball. Sanction: Penalty.[/LAWS]
SH is not within the scrum so by deduction they must not play the ball.

[LAWS]Other restricted practices at a scrum include:
Falling on or over the ball immediately after it has emerged from the scrum.
Scrum-half kicking the ball while it is in the scrum.
Non-front-row player holding or pushing an opponent.[/LAWS]
The intent here surely is to indicate we dont want the SH getting into the scrum to play the ball (with hands nor feet)

But probably one to manage if the blighter tries it.

 

[DocY]

Excuse my ignorance, but what was his rationale to argue it was, technically, not a knock on?

You made me check the definition.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

He is losing possession and the ball goes forward, end off! If the rolling fwd was intentional, pk, if it's not scrum.

Sorry for the confusion - the situation under discussion was rolling the ball forward rather than a grubber kick (though quite why you'd want to do this, I don't know).

His argument (and he isn't a referee) was that, since the player was still in possession when the ball hit the ground, it didn't fit the definition of a knock on.

 

[didds]

OK. I can see that from in very convoluted scenario

* player P puts the ball B on the ground firmly and it doesnt move
* P then places his open palm against the ball, his own DBL side of it.
* P pushes the ball forwards with the palm maintaining contact at all times (or walks the ball forward with finger tips atih at least one finger tip in contact at all times)

yeah right.

Its a knock on. If it wasn''t he won't do it again.

didds

 

[Pinky]

Sorry for the confusion - the situation under discussion was rolling the ball forward rather than a grubber kick (though quite why you'd want to do this, I don't know).

His argument (and he isn't a referee) was that, since the player was still in possession when the ball hit the ground, it didn't fit the definition of a knock on.

Do you mean rolling as in bowls, or very slow underarm cricket? Ie letting the ball go to run along the ground? That for me is a throw forward, and probably deliberate!

Alasdair

 

[DocY]

Do you mean rolling as in bowls, or very slow underarm cricket? Ie letting the ball go to run along the ground? That for me is a throw forward, and probably deliberate!

Alasdair

That sort of thing, but definitely putting the ball on the ground first. I agree, though - the only question is penalty or scrum.