[Line out] Rule 19.8 (i): when exactly has the line out commenced?

[RobLev]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular](i) Where the receiver must stand. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]
Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.[/FONT]​

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
In a recent match, my team was penalised when the receiver joined a short line out and was lifted. The ref said it was legal only if he joined after the ball leaves the hooker's hands. This had been my gut feeling when this move was first unveiled. But the rule says commenced. So when is that, exactly? 19.9(a) says The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in. So 19.8 uses commenced while 19.9 uses begins. (The ref also said that it meant there was no receiver, and that we were obliged to have one, so that's obviously not correct)

We've used this move in a lot of games and this was the first time it was pulled up.[/FONT]

I know I'm late on this, but here goes:

The general view in these parts is that the Laws were written by a 12-year-old work experience trainee in crayon at the very loose direction of a bunch of old farts leaving for an extended boozy lunch. So close textual analysis of the difference between "begins" and "commences" is a non-starter.

You're right that Law 19.8(i) doesn't require a team to have a receiver; it simply dictates where a receiver must stand if there is one (so the ref was wrong on that):

[LAWS]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins....[/LAWS]

The receiver can't move into the lineout before the ball is thrown in; because (19.8(d)):

[LAWS]When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay...[/LAWS]

If he has stopped for long enough to become the receiver, he cannot claim to have approached the line of touch "without delay".

It is permissible for the receiver and a lineout player to (ex)change places before the ball is thrown in:

[LAWS]Participating players in a lineout may change places before the ball is thrown.[/LAWS]

but that doesn't get your receiver legally into the line as an extra player before the ball is thrown, because someone (from the lineout) has to take his place as receiver.

So the move as set out in your #20 is indeed impermissible If he joins the line before the ball is thrown, someone has to drop out.

 

[Phil E]

I know I'm late on this, but here goes:

There's late and there's LATE!

I think we covered this in Post #2 two weeks ago!

 

[L'irlandais]

...
It's a move I dislike as I feel it breaks several aspects of the laws as the extra man invariably joins well before the ball leaves the thrower's hands. And it feels like cheating, which is the part I find hardest to deal with. However, very few refs penalise it for the receiver joining- it far more often fails because the throw is crooked!

And there's more. (As Jimmey Cricket might say.)
[laws]7.1 Playing the game :
Whatever a player does must be in accordance with the Laws of the Game.[/laws]Now you know why (see posts #2 and 21 for details) the move is not allowed - 7.1 Prevents you from ever using it.

Crooked throw is karma for sure.

 

[Dixie]

And there's more. (As Jimmey Cricket might say.)
[laws]7.1 Playing the game :
Whatever a player does must be in accordance with the Laws of the Game.[/laws]Now you know why (see posts #2 and 21 for details) the move is not allowed - 7.1 Prevents you from ever using it.

This is overstatement. If the timing is right (i.e. receiver starts moving after the ball leaves the thrower's hand) the move is perfectly legal. When the law first came in, we agonised over how to deal with it - and many of us got comfortable with the idea that if the receiver was lifted at the front we'd ping it whether or not we were certain he'd moved early, because he is unlikely to be able to cover 2m and get lifted faster than the throw can cover 6m. But if he came in at the back, we'd let it slide unless we clearly saw that he'd moved early.

 

[FatherFlipper]

Slight return (sorry...): I had what I think was the opposite case last weekend - reds have penalty, kick to touch. Call four man line-out.

Ball in hookers hands, with FIVE men in the line-out. The receiver is in the line as well. As the hooker brings his arm, the receiver steps out of the line. Purple team have four in the line out the entire time - at the next play, Purple captain comes over and mentions the numbers issue - said that as the ball hadn't left the hookers hands, the line-out started at that point, and the line-out numbers were correct.

Red did this again at the next line-out (they utterly ballsed up both of them anyway). Have been trying to justify my decision on that basis, and the captain actually was happy with the explanation. I'm taking the "line-out starts as the ball leaves the hooker's hands" as the absolute starting point of the line-out, so that anything that happens before that (numbers, positioning etc) is moot - obviously there is a massive timing issue with some of the points (no way a player can leave the line-out AND get back into the defensive line between the cocking of the arm and the release of the ball), but in this case, there was a very distinct moment between the arm going back/player leaving the line-out, and the ball actually being released. Thoughts (more than prepared to be shot down in flames on this one).

 

[Phil E]

Peep.

"Guys if you call 4, I expect to see 4 in the line.
And I need to know who is in the SH position guys?"


The reason the SH has to stand >=2m back is so that he is identifiable as the SH.