[Line out] Rule 19.8 (i): when exactly has the line out commenced?

[Jasper]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular](i) Where the receiver must stand. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]
Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.[/FONT]​

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
In a recent match, my team was penalised when the receiver joined a short line out and was lifted. The ref said it was legal only if he joined after the ball leaves the hooker's hands. This had been my gut feeling when this move was first unveiled. But the rule says commenced. So when is that, exactly? 19.9(a) says The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in. So 19.8 uses commenced while 19.9 uses begins. (The ref also said that it meant there was no receiver, and that we were obliged to have one, so that's obviously not correct)

We've used this move in a lot of games and this was the first time it was pulled up.[/FONT]

 

[Phil E]

The line out begins, or commences, or starts, when the ball leaves the throwers hands.
The person in the SH position (which is optional) cannot join the line until that point.
Jumpers may not leave the ground until that point.

 

[Pegleg]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Commenced and begins, basically they mean the same thing. I don't see any problem with this law. All a question of timing.[/FONT]

 

[ChrisR]

Jaspar,

The usual objection to having the receiver join is that it creates a man advantage in the lineout. If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change. An example would be to have your scrumhalf as the first man in the lineout step out as the jumper joins before the ball is thrown in.

 

[crossref]

Jaspar,

The usual objection to having the receiver join is that it creates a man advantage in the lineout. If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change. An example would be to have your scrumhalf as the first man in the lineout step out as the jumper joins before the ball is thrown in.

I think Jaspar has just 2 in the lineout, and the SH joins to get lifted unopposed.

 

[Taff]

... If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change.

Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

 

[ChrisR]

I think Jaspar has just 2 in the lineout, and the SH joins to get lifted unopposed.

Understood, though he said "short lineout" in the OP. And the thrower comes around as the receiver, as in 7s. However, that practice was discussed and denounced here a couple of years ago so I'm a bit surprised that his team has gone this long.

What I'm suggesting is an alternative that doesn't conflict with law.

 

[crossref]

Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

no becasue

[LAWS](c)
Players may change their positions in the lineout before the ball is thrown in.[/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

No since the position change happens before the lineout starts.

 

[Taff]

No since the position change happens before the lineout starts.

So what are they gaining? They lose one and gain one.

 

[crossref]

So what are they gaining? They lose one and gain one.

surprise!

#1 leaves LO, and the SH comes in between 3 and 4 and is lifted

 

[ChrisR]

crossref, you're quicker than I or perhaps you don't have dialup.

 

[ChrisR]

This is how it works for us:

Four men in the line, SH at 1 with lifters at 2, 3 & 4 but spaced out with last lifter at the 15m.

The jumper, coming in from the receiver position can join anywhere in the line and the lifters move to form a pod. It's a variation on shuffling places.

 

[Taff]

It's been a long day and I'm having a brain fart here.

When do the numbers get counted? Before the LO starts, or while the LO is taking place?

19.8(b) doesn't say, but I assume it's the number in the LO immediately before the ball leaves the throwers hands that count.

 

[ChrisR]

Correct. And since the number stay the same (1 in, 1 out) then everything is OK.

 

[The Fat]

It's been a long day and I'm having a brain fart here.

When do the numbers get counted? Before the LO starts, or while the LO is taking place?

19.8(b) doesn't say, but I assume it's the number in the LO immediately before the ball leaves the throwers hands that count.

Correct. So if each team has 3 in the LO and both have a receiver with say red to throw in, after the ball leaves the red thrower's hands, the red receiver can run into the LO. So yes, a 4 on 3

 

[didds]

Jasper, if its any help, we use something similar but use the tail gunner as a rover entering a gap, and the receiver stays still.

Didds

 

[Taff]

OK, but there's nothing stopping the opposition using the same tactic and having a 3 on 2.

 

[ChrisR]

OK, but there's nothing stopping the opposition using the same tactic and having a 3 on 2.

Yes, the receiver joining is not limited to the throwing team.

 

[Jasper]

Apologies- I should've been more clear.

The original line out was a 2 man, with a flanker standing in the receiver position. At the last moment, he joins the line and is lifted to gather the ball unopposed. The opposition usually match the players and put their flanker in to mark, but they don't usually respond quickly enough to get him off the ground. Our lifted flanker then either comes to ground and pops to the now-galloping hooker or passes off the top to him for an attack along the tramlines.

It's a move I dislike as I feel it breaks several aspects of the laws as the extra man invariably joins well before the ball leaves the thrower's hands. And it feels like cheating, which is the part I find hardest to deal with. However, very few refs penalise it for the receiver joining- it far more often fails because the throw is crooked!

My original post was really just me looking for some way I can justify retaining it, as it is a very potent weapon, and- when not penalised- often leads to a score off the subsequent phases.