Sale v Northampton

[Dave Sherwin]

Did anyone else feel that Matt Carley's first 20 minutes or so were rather dominated by "gotcha" penalties, a few of which were rather doubtful calls? I thought the first scrum penalty against Sale was dubious as was, to my mind, the first line out penalty against Wood for contact in the air. i also thought the two "no-arm-tackle" penalties against first Wood and then Ma'afu were pretty tough.

No agenda here, by the way, just inquiring as to others' thoughts on what seemed an unusually agitated passage of refereeing from someone who is usually rather calm (perhaps he was unsettled by the pre kick-off argument about which end Sale had chosen?).

On a separate note, for those unfortunate enough to see the itv sport feed, surely the most inane commentary ever. I'm interested by this chap Matt Foden who the commentator kept referring to - looks a good prospect.

 

[TheBFG]

Did anyone else feel that Matt Carley's first 20 minutes or so were rather dominated by "gotcha" penalties, a few of which were rather doubtful calls?

and you're surprised? Did you watch Leicester v Bath game?

 

[Phil E]

and you're surprised? Did you watch Leicester v Bath game?

He was great in that :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

perhaps he was unsettled by the pre kick-off argument about which end Sale had chosen?.

what happened?

(and it raises an interesting question : if it's a windy day and you hold the toss some time in advance of kick off, then can the captain who gets choice of end delay his choice of which end until kick-off, to see which way the wind is blowing?)

 

[Dave Sherwin]

what happened?

(and it raises an interesting question : if it's a windy day and you hold the toss some time in advance of kick off, then can the captain who gets choice of end delay his choice of which end until kick-off, to see which way the wind is blowing?)

They got out on the pitch, ready for kick-off and Braid and Cipriani had a fairly heated debate with Carley, apparently indicating that they thought they had chosen the other end. Of course, they may have been saying that the wind had changed and so they wanted the other end, but I don't think that was it.

Your question is a good one. I'm inclined to say that I would let a captain who, as a result of the toss, had chosen his end (which could, of course, be the losing captain) change his call up to kick-off if I had done the toss significantly in advance. Some match-day run sheets for games I have done have had the toss as early as 75 minutes pre kick-off and in those circumstances I think it is only equitable to allow the captain to change ends.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I recall a junior (U15ish) where we did the toss indoors about 3/4 hour before kick off.

Winner said "we'll play with the wind."
"Which way's that?"
He then trotted outside.
Upon his return he said "we'll play towards the road"
"Which one?" (there was one at either end)
"Erm?....We'll kick off"

I personally would let a captain change his mind at KO if the wind had changed.

 

[crossref]

Your question is a good one. I'm inclined to say that I would let a captain who, as a result of the toss, had chosen his end (which could, of course, be the losing captain) change his call up to kick-off if I had done the toss significantly in advance. Some match-day run sheets for games I have done have had the toss as early as 75 minutes pre kick-off and in those circumstances I think it is only equitable to allow the captain to change ends.

I was thinking that once a captain has chosen, he should stick to it, but 75 mins before the game the capt picking the ends should be allowed to defer his choice of end until - say - 10 mins before.

Or perhaps a captain should voice all this concern before the toss - and ask to defer the toss.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I was thinking that once a captain has chosen, he should stick to it, but 75 mins before the game the capt picking the ends should be allowed to defer his choice of end until - say - 10 mins before.

Or perhaps a captain should voice all this concern before the toss - and ask to defer the toss.

Is it a big deal if the decision is defered rather than changed? Either way the opponents are "inconvenienced" although I suppose if they are aware of the deferment then it's perhaps more equitable.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Is it a big deal if the decision is defered rather than changed? Either way the opponents are "inconvenienced" although I suppose if they are aware of the deferment then it's perhaps more equitable.

If the match-day run sheet dictates the toss to be 75 minutes before KO, then we generally have to stick with it as the run sheet will have been agreed at least 24 hours in advance to allow the coaches etc. to structure their pre-match time. I know the toss only takes a couple of minutes, but sometimes that is also the slot where the captain has to fulfil short press obligations etc. so you can't really move the slot. I think I would press the captain who asked to defer the decision to "make one now", but please let me know if you think you're going to change it around.

 

[crossref]

hmm. On a windy day it's likely that the winner of the toss will choose ends and having won the toss really wants to have the advantage of playing in the preferred direction (normally with the wind, while it's there as who knows if the wind will last...)

if the toos is too early it negates the advantage of winning it.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

If the match-day run sheet dictates the toss to be 75 minutes before KO, then we generally have to stick with it as the run sheet will have been agreed at least 24 hours in advance to allow the coaches etc. to structure their pre-match time. I know the toss only takes a couple of minutes, but sometimes that is also the slot where the captain has to fulfil short press obligations etc. so you can't really move the slot. I think I would press the captain who asked to defer the decision to "make one now", but please let me know if you think you're going to change it around.

Haha.

Needless to say I can't recall any Captain I've refereed having any press obligations before kick off unless it's to remember to pop into the newsagents for his fags on the way to the ground.

I suppose it may be a horses for courses decision.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Haha.

Needless to say I can't recall any Captain I've refereed having any press obligations before kick off unless it's to remember to pop into the newsagents for his fags on the way to the ground.

I suppose it may be a horses for courses decision.

Yes - I should perhaps qualify that in 95% of my matches, the toss is just done whenever the last to arrive captain arrives off his dive boat, which could be about 30 seconds prior to kick off. If he tried to change his mind after that, I'm not sure I'd have much sympathy (especially as he should know damn well which way the wind is blowing!!!)!

 

[crossref]

over there the ends are called the 'windward end' and the 'leeward end'

 

[Dave Sherwin]

You joke, but one of the national team flankers is a Caymanian deep sea fishing captain who's spent his life at sea and can tell you what the wind is going to be doing in about 10 days' time!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

You joke, but one of the national team flankers is a Caymanian deep sea fishing captain who's spent his life at sea and can tell you what the wind is going to be doing in about 10 days' time!

I know what the wind will be doing in 10 days time. The problem I have is from which direction it's coming and how strong it will be blowing. :biggrin:

 

[Browner]

This is being made far more complicated than necessary.

Whoever wins the toss, gets the choice, that's enshrined in Law.

As for the timing of the decision, If they want to make that choice 2 mins before kick off, does it was really matter? Even international players can move c.80 Meters in 2 mins, can't they?

I presume its not beyond the ability of an elite referee to tell players "change ends please" , or does it need a WR clarification 1st :sarc:

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Browner, if you were Carley, you would have let them change ends? I'm inclined to agree. If Sale won the toss and want to change ends - all power to them.

 

[Dickie E]

As for the timing of the decision, If they want to make that choice 2 mins before kick off, does it was really matter?

But that's not the debate. The question is: once a captain has made his choice, can he then change it?

And further: if he elects to kick, can he then tell the ref 10 mins later: "changed my mind, we'll now run that way"

 

[Browner]

But that's not the debate. The question is: once a captain has made his choice, can he then change it?

And further: if he elects to kick, can he then tell the ref 10 mins later: "changed my mind, we'll now run that way"

Kick off is an event, prior to that the toss winner gets to choose.

I care not about how early the toss is done, all advantages to the toss winners. Anything else is pedantic unnecessary jobs worth.

What exactly is the detriment, other than the subs warming up in the GBA have to bugger off up the other end !!!

- - - Updated - - -

Browner, if you were Carley, you would have let them change ends? I'm inclined to agree. If Sale won the toss and want to change ends - all power to them.

Yep. Why ever not.

 

[SimonSmith]

"Ok lads, we're receiving. Here's what I want from the off....[tactics]"

"What, we're kicking off? We haven't discussed kicking into the wind yet. I was saving that for the halftime talk"