Sale v Northampton

[The Fat]

Toss the coin.
Winner chooses kick or end.
All sorted.
As you're jogging out onto the field, toss winner says he wants to change ends from his original decision.
Bad luck tiger, this was all sorted at the toss. Live with it.

 

[Browner]

Toss the coin.
Winner chooses kick or end.
All sorted.
As you're jogging out onto the field, toss winner says he wants to change ends from his original decision.
Bad luck tiger, this was all sorted at the toss. Live with it.

& now you've irked one captain, for what reason? To prove that your a stickler for a 'timebound' decision (rule) that isn't specified in Law.

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular](a)
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Toss. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee organises the toss. One of the captains tosses a coin and the other captain calls to see who wins the toss. The winner of the toss decides whether to kick off or to choose an end. If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off and vice versa.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Why cant he choose an end when the teams wander out onto the pitch ?

If players can't react to a pre-scripted kick off plan that changes into a different kick off routine with a few minutes to the start , then they shouldnt be playing anything other than Social rugby, as reacting to what is needed is clearly beyond their ability:sarc:

 

[FlipFlop]

A Lot of match day protocol will set the timings for this out. So (say) 45min from kick off, Captains and Ref meet for coin toss. I think it is expected at that point that the toss happens, and decisions made.

This isn't an issue at grassroots, as coin toss can happen any time, but when there is a match day protocol set out, then it needs to be followed. The issue then is - does the toss also mean decision? I expect if this is an issue, to see protocols changed to enforce the decision at the toss.

Certainly if both teams have agreed a match day protocol, which includes toss, then I expect them to make the decision at that point, and not change it afterwards.

 

[crossref]

Let's look at the Law

[LAWS]a) Toss. The referee organises the toss. One of the captains tosses a coin and the other captain calls to see who wins the toss. The winner of the toss decides whether to kick off or to choose an end. If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off and vice versa. [/LAWS]

Seems to me here that the captain could win the toss and say
"I have won the toss : my decision is to choose an end; as it's very windy, I will make the choice of which end at 2.50pm"

I don't think that's unreasonable, or outside the Law.

I wouldn't let him choose it at 2:59 as that seems to be an irritation, and take us beyond the bounds of what is customary in rugby.

 

[The Fat]

Does anyone really not believe that the intention of how the law is written is that the decisions are made at the time of the toss?

Seems to me that the "delayed" decision is an unnecessary distraction/inconvenience/pain in the arse, take your pick. You may as well just say to the captains, "Weather is a bit unpredictable and the wind is expected to build. Would you prefer to do the coin toss 5 minutes prior to kick-off? If so we will do it at (pick designated area) so you can return to your change rooms to inform your players prior to taking the field".

 

[The Fat]

& now you've irked one captain, for what reason?

Why? Because he is not smart enough to make a simple decision 30 or 40 minutes before kick-off?

 

[OB..]

How often does this situation arise? Once in a blue moon? Do we really want the protocols clogged up with attempts to cover all sorts of unlikely but feasible situations?

Do something sensible, if it ever occurs, based on the circumstances at the time.

 

[Browner]

Does anyone really not believe that the intention of how the law is written is that the decisions are made at the time of the toss?

Seems to me that the "delayed" decision is an unnecessary distraction/inconvenience/pain in the arse, take your pick. You may as well just say to the captains, "Weather is a bit unpredictable and the wind is expected to build. Would you prefer to do the coin toss 5 minutes prior to kick-off? If so we will do it at (pick designated area) so you can return to your change rooms to inform your players prior to taking the field".

Of course they were expected to be made then , but the law when written didn't have to consider modern prematch protocols of tossing so far in advance of kick off.

 

[Browner]

A Lot of match day protocol will set the timings for this out. So (say) 45min from kick off, Captains and Ref meet for coin toss. I think it is expected at that point that the toss happens, and decisions made.

This isn't an issue at grassroots, as coin toss can happen any time, but when there is a match day protocol set out, then it needs to be followed. The issue then is - does the toss also mean decision? I expect if this is an issue, to see protocols changed to enforce the decision at the toss.

Certainly if both teams have agreed a match day protocol, which includes toss, then I expect them to make the decision at that point, and not change it afterwards.

I'm aware FF, of how a modern prematch protocol has driven an increasingly earlier toss, and therein the advantage of winning it has been slightly diminished.

But i still maintain, there isnt any sensible logistical reason why a decision can't still be made ( or amended) as kick off is approaching, other than to require two teams to simply change ends.

 

[FlipFlop]

The the teams shouldn't have agreed to such a protocol/time line in the first place...

If I (as the referee) am given a pre-match timetable, as agreed by both teams, then I will follow it. I will not alter it. It is expected of me, by the teams, by the assessors, by the match observers etc.

 

[winchesterref]

I have let them delay their choice until exiting the changing room, and would probably let them change their minds. No big deal, I get them out early and on time. The players will have to adapt to far bigger things than the choice of kick or end during the game!

 

[SimonSmith]

I'm aware FF, of how a modern prematch protocol has driven an increasingly earlier toss, and therein the advantage of winning it has been slightly diminished.

But i still maintain, there isnt any sensible logistical reason why a decision can't still be made ( or amended) as kick off is approaching, other than to require two teams to simply change ends.

And I disagree, per my earlier post.

 

[andyscott]

15mins before is the national panel regulations I believe.