Sarries vs Ulster

[davidgh]

Hope Goode is OK

Did Garces get the red for Payne right?

What was it for - dangerous play?

 

[dave_clark]

taking the man out in the air. Payne wasn't jumping for the ball, just charged straight into Goode and took his legs out.

RC seems entirely fair to me.

 

[Shelflife]

For me Payne never saw Goode and had eyes on the ball all the time. genuine attempt to play the ball. YC for me,but can understand the RC but feel that its very harsh.

 

[KML1]

Haven't seen it but have been following the arguments on Twitter. For me, if you go with the view that it's serious foul play, it has to be a red at that level - youd have to have some pretty good mitigating circs to bring it down to a yellow.

Shelflife: "For me Payne never saw Goode and had eyes on the ball all the time. genuine attempt to play the ball." - taking this at face value, there is no foul play in what you describe so not even a penalty. Why a YC?

Just being devils advocate!

 

[Shelflife]

Because it was taking a man out in the air. Dangerous play. YC because he was going for the ball. If it was a situation where Payne just took him out with no effort to play the ball then that for me would be red.

 

[FightOrFlight]

The way I see it Payne does not make an attempt to play the player but more of an attempt to play the ball. He doesn't jump but then again why would he? I don't think he see's Goode and so he is just coming forward to make a catch and suddenly Goode arrives. It is a YC at most and a clumsy one at that.

This comes back to an issue and trend I believe is developing with French T14 refs. In an effort to combat on pitch incidents and foul play the French Union seem to be encouraging the use of RCs to stamp out ill discipline. For me this RC is an over reaction and more down to the fact Goode stayed down. If Goode bounced up it would have been a PK or YC at most.

To issue a RC here there must be intent and I very much doubt it can be said that Payne intended to hurt Goode.

 

[irishref]

If that is red, given after a good 5 minutes and multiple replays, I despair of where the game is going.

Yellow would have been harsh imo.

 

[Toby Warren]

Has any video emerged yet?

 

[SilverMoon]

Haven't seen it but have been following the arguments on Twitter. For me, if you go with the view that it's serious foul play, it has to be a red at that level - youd have to have some pretty good mitigating circs to bring it down to a yellow.

Shelflife: "For me Payne never saw Goode and had eyes on the ball all the time. genuine attempt to play the ball." - taking this at face value, there is no foul play in what you describe so not even a penalty. Why a YC?

Just being devils advocate!

KML would be interested in your views on the time taken to make the red card decision. Goode received extensive treatment including receiving Oxygen, perhaps 5 minutes plus and it was only as the Goode was finally stretchered off was the red card brandished. Should the match officials taken into account the seriousness of the injury ? Thankfully Goode was later seen walking around the pitch which makes my question more difficult to justify ?

 

[Chogan]

 

[Ian_Cook]

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Rushforth.

This is just BS. If this is a standard for a RC then I do wonder about the future of the game.

 

[Womble]

IMO never a card of any colour, clumsy at best!!

 

[Chogan]

The same thing happened in the Reds v Force game yesterday.

http://www.mobypicture.com/user/mickobrien1/view/16745988

 

[RobLev]

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Rushforth.

This is just BS. If this is a standard for a RC then I do wonder about the future of the game.

It looks to me as if Payne sees him at the last moment and pulls out of jumping for the ball; he plants his right foot but instead of pushing off upward just brings the left through, and smashes his face into Goode's hip. I can't see that that is in any sense deliberately taking him out - unless he likes the taste of his own blood.

 

[exiledholdfast]

IMO never a card of any colour, clumsy at best!!

Agreed. The Goode/Payne incident yesterday has raised serious questions about the legitimacy of jumping for the ball. At present the law protects the jumper at the expense of legitimate play by player who remains on ground. At no stage did Payne take his eyes off the ball, he did not see Goode jumping in, his face hit Goode's hip - so unless he's a madman I cannot see how his action was dangerous. It was an accident but Goode put himself in the dangerous position by jumping into Payne. Hence the need for lawmakers to look at the legitimacy of jumping for the ball in open play. If they don't a player will break his neck through dangerous or legal play by a player on the ground.

 

[OB..]

Agreed. The Goode/Payne incident yesterday has raised serious questions about the legitimacy of jumping for the ball. At present the law protects the jumper at the expense of legitimate play by player who remains on ground. At no stage did Payne take his eyes off the ball, he did not see Goode jumping in, his face hit Goode's hip - so unless he's a madman I cannot see how his action was dangerous. It was an accident but Goode put himself in the dangerous position by jumping into Payne. Hence the need for lawmakers to look at the legitimacy of jumping for the ball in open play. If they don't a player will break his neck through dangerous or legal play by a player on the ground.

I don't see that it is realistic bring in a law to make it illegal to jump for the ball in open play. There are far too many situations where it makes sense to jump, and presents no danger to anyone.

In this case I agree that it looks as if Payne was intending to jump for the ball himself, and only spotted Goode at the last second. He tried to pull out, which meant he went under Goode. It would probably have been less dangerous for him to continue his jump, when they would have clashed in the air.

Was that a culpable error? I don't think so, but there is some responsibility on the chaser to realise the possible danger. However I cannot see it as a RC incident.

 

[exiledholdfast]

I don't see that it is realistic bring in a law to make it illegal to jump for the ball in open play. There are far too many situations where it makes sense to jump, and presents no danger to anyone.

In this case I agree that it looks as if Payne was intending to jump for the ball himself, and only spotted Goode at the last second. He tried to pull out, which meant he went under Goode. It would probably have been less dangerous for him to continue his jump, when they would have clashed in the air.

Was that a culpable error? I don't think so, but there is some responsibility on the chaser to realise the possible danger. However I cannot see it as a RC incident.

Why would it be unrealistic? There are many actions that are not legal that would benefit a player in some way, eg tackling a player in the air, tackling around the neck. If jumping unsupported for the ball in open play was made illegal then it would not take long for the practice to cease. It is inherently dangerous and I wonder if you would still subscribe to your argument if Goode had broken his neck. Payne's action was entirely legal and you could not introduce a law to stop players remaining on the ground to catch the ball, but it would be easy to referee players jumping to catch a ball.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Why would it be unrealistic? There are many actions that are not legal that would benefit a player in some way, eg tackling a player in the air, tackling around the neck. If jumping unsupported for the ball in open play was made illegal then it would not take long for the practice to cease. It is inherently dangerous and I wonder if you would still subscribe to your argument if Goode had broken his neck. Payne's action was entirely legal and you could not introduce a law to stop players remaining on the ground to catch the ball, but it would be easy to referee players jumping to catch a ball.

Ban tackling all together. Safety first! Are you sure you aren't a football (soccer) player?

 

[exiledholdfast]

Ban tackling all together. Safety first! Are you sure you aren't a football (soccer) player?

Never played football but have been involved in rugby for 50 years. This is not a question of tackling but one of fair competition and safety. Payne could not have second guessed what Goode was going to do, so to make it a fair competition the laws would have to decree that either both have to jump or both stay on the ground. The former is not realistic but the latter is. Other option is to let players jump and take the risk that they may be taken out by the legal action of players on the ground. We cannot have the situation whereby jumping makes the actions of the non jumper illegal.

 

[Browner]

We are seeing more of this, the chaser looks up and continues running through the player who's leaping, sometimes they turn their back to make it appear even less obvious......

With the idea that everything that happens in the pro game isnt 'by accident' then this tactic is designed to hurt the opponent whilst claiming innocence of action, I don't buy it

Elite players are acutely aware of what is happening around them, its an early match "rattler" in every guise.

Crikey, if falatua can jump at Hartley and be protected then this collision has a much higher level of responsibility on behalf of the chaser running at high speed.

If you chase a kick and don't try and jump for possession then you have the collision responsibility.