Sarries vs Ulster

[davidgh]

RobLev

I note that you have added a load to your first post.

I agree my proposed outcome of a jump could be b*ll*x! Hard to say. Payne should have been fully aware of everything in his forward quadrant and stopped short to challenge the landing player. I was looking at the ball ref doesn't hack it for me.

It isn't really a harsh charge, and it isn't personal, it is a problem with the current elite game which needs a solution. If we don't discuss the reality, we won't get a real solution, we get a fudge instead.

 

[RobLev]

RobLev

I note that you have added a load to your first post.

I think I was editing while you were replying...

I agree my proposed outcome of a jump could be b*ll*x! Hard to say. Payne should have been fully aware of everything in his forward quadrant and stopped short to challenge the landing player. I was looking at the ball ref doesn't hack it for me.

The only completely safe outcome would be to prevent attacking players trying to catch the ball. think what you tell a child when teaching them to catch a ball: "Watch it into your hands". The only way a chasing player can do that is by directing their attention behind them. Fielders regularly collide trying to catch high balls like this, and they're not competing for the ball; see 3, 4 and 5 from this compilation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1h2MXhv6g

The aftermath of 5 is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/cricket/443506.stm

Gillespie and Waugh are running straight toward one another, but don't see each other.

In the OP, by the time Goode jumps, he's actually jumping at right angles to Payne's line of run. He's overrun the kick; but is clearly "looking at the ball".

It isn't really a harsh charge, and it isn't personal, it is a problem with the current elite game which needs a solution. If we don't discuss the reality, we won't get a real solution, we get a fudge instead.

But the reality, as I see it, is that this was an accident. Goode could have tried to avoid it by not jumping, just as Payne did - and unarguably Goode was in a better position to avoid the accident, since he was looking forward all the time.

If Payne had deliberately just kept running, I'd entirely agree that's a red - but in my view he didn't.

 

[Fatboy_Ginge]

Maybe I'm just not parsing this properly, but it seems as though you're saying that it's not possible for a player to make a lifting tackle with the intention of turning the tackled player through about 80 degrees before bringing him to ground, and then accidentally end up turning him to about 95 degrees instead. Which seems a bit odd.

I don't get why intent is suddenly irrelevant in this situation when the potential outcome is exactly the same; a player landing with force on the head or neck area. I agree that the situations aren't precisely analogous, but it does seem slightly bizarre that people are so stridently in favour of the harshest possible interpretation in one and similarly as stridently against it in another.

It's very simple. To tip/spear tackle someone there can be very little forward movement from the tackler: i.e. if the tackler is moving towards the BC then it is a physical impossibility to grasp, lift and rotate. Your momentum makes it impossible and therefore a tip/spear tackle CANNOT be performed.

If there is little/no forward movement from the tackler then you can grasp, lift and rotate and it's this rotation of the players legs past the horizontal that makes it dangerous. In addition you KNOW if you're lifting the BC, it is a DELIBERATE movement on the tacklers part. Therefore you have intent... QED

 

[Browner]

If a chaser can speed forward , expect a jumping player and be exempt from sanction if he either looks up in the air or turns a shoulder then we are setting up a very dangerous outcome.

I contend that the game would not want those outcomes to exist.

The duty of care seems always to lie with whoever is putting the other at risk (**) the best mitigation is if you jump with equal intent on catching the ball ........timing is also your risk when you are 2nd favourite to arrive at the land zone.

Good decision for all current and future generations of players IMO.



(**). PS. (Jumpers have a similar duty of care not to lead with studs up, or a deliberately jutting out knee aimed at an arriving opponent)

 

[Fatboy_Ginge]

RobLev...

I don't follow your logic... The laws state that a player in the air CANNOT be touched. This is why ALL players jump for the ball; they know that they cannot be tackled or taken out until they are back on the ground. This goes for defenders and attackers. By your argument I could take a player out in the air and claim that as I was watching the ball I was OK to do this.

In the OP Payne was clearly watching the ball - that isn't disputed. HOWEVER you cannot fail to see a player ahead of you jumping 5 foot in the air going to get the ball and get there ahead of you.

Payne however made little or no attempt to jump for the ball and more importantly he also grabs him in the air. Garces was no more than 8 yards away... Had I been refereeing that match and seen that I would have issued a RC as well,

 

[Ian_Cook]

After the incident both he and the captain were very insistent that since he kept his eyes on the ball he couldn't have seen the other player. Focus is a wonderful thing, but so is peripheral vision, I don't believe he was unaware of Goode.

In the OP Payne was clearly watching the ball - that isn't disputed. HOWEVER you cannot fail to see a player ahead of you jumping 5 foot in the air going to get the ball and get there ahead of you.

Be careful there both of you because, you're making false assumptions

Peripheral vision is not hemispherical it is ellipsoidal. In humans. lateral peripheral vision is about 180° but medial peripheral vision is only about 130°. That means if you tilt your head upwards and your eyes up at any more than about 65°, you cannot see anything in front of you, not even peripherally. This is how two players running towards each other can really not see each other and that is probably how the Waugh/Gillespie crash happened.

In Payne's case, it is very likely that he didn't see Goode until he jumped. Too late by then.

 

[Toby Warren]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...by-Saracens-can-help-to-improve-the-game.html

 

[OB..]

"Purposefully having no awareness of others on the pitch"? That's a strong charge. Do bear in mind that the ball came from behind Payne and slightly to the left of his line of running, so if he was going to catch it he'd have to be looking over his left shoulder. Goode was crossing his path from right to left. Peripheral vision doesn't work through the back of the head. It is entirely credible that Payne didn't see him until the last moment.

In the local park I might buy that argument, but not at this level. Every player knows that a defender will be jumping for the ball and therefore he has an obligation to act accordingly.

If Payne had jumped, perforce from partially underneath Goode, it is at least as likely that (i) Goode would have been flipped over more forcibly and have come down from higher, and (ii) he would still have rotated about his head and upper body, with a strong likelihood of himself coming down on his own head and neck.

Both situations have occurred quite a few times and my observation suggests the mid-air collision is much less dangerous than running under a jumping player. The latter is almost guaranteed to tip him over, the former is unlikely to.

 

[OB..]

Be careful there both of you because, you're making false assumptions

Peripheral vision is not hemispherical it is ellipsoidal. In humans. lateral peripheral vision is about 180° but medial peripheral vision is only about 130°. That means if you tilt your head upwards and your eyes up at any more than about 65°, you cannot see anything in front of you, not even peripherally. This is how two players running towards each other can really not see each other and that is probably how the Waugh/Gillespie crash happened.

In Payne's case, it is very likely that he didn't see Goode until he jumped. Too late by then.

I'm sure we have all seen the videos showing that the area of your vision does not prove that you must have observed something, only that you physically could have.

In Payne's case if he did not realise an opponent would be jumping for the ball he should not be playing at that level. He got it wrong. How culpable he was is a difficult question, but I don't want to see him make the same mistake again.

 

[Chogan]

Payne did not make a tackle on a player in the air, he collided with him and the effect of this was a potential serious injury.

[LAWS]10.4
(e) Dangerous Tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.
(i) Tackling the jumper in the air. A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.[/LAWS]

My biggest issue is that I have never seen a RC for this before.

If any kick chase player went into a game knowing that this could be a RC for merely not contesting the ball in the same manner as the defending player or mistiming his jump, well then you would have to accept the consequence of your actions without complaint.

As far as I am aware there has been no memo sent out like the lifting/tipping tackle one. So we are not all working from the same page. Consistency in decisions is what we get asked for. This RC was inconsistent.

 

[RobLev]

RobLev...

I don't follow your logic... The laws state that a player in the air CANNOT be touched.

Not quite. The specific Laws in relation to a player in the air state that:

[LAWS]A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.
...
A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.[/LAWS]
(10.4(e))

and

[LAWS] A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.[/LAWS]
(10.4(i))

Payne doesn't tackle Goode; he neither holds nor indeed makes any attempt to hold him. So the question is whether he has tapped, pushed or pulled Goode's feet.

If he had deliberately run into his lower legs, then I entirely agree that he could be said to have done one of these things. But i don't agree that he deliberately did so. Payne is fully entitled to compete for the ball in the air - he is under no obligation to get out of Goode's way.

This is why ALL players jump for the ball; they know that they cannot be tackled or taken out until they are back on the ground. This goes for defenders and attackers. By your argument I could take a player out in the air and claim that as I was watching the ball I was OK to do this.

No you couldn't.

In the OP Payne was clearly watching the ball - that isn't disputed. HOWEVER you cannot fail to see a player ahead of you jumping 5 foot in the air going to get the ball and get there ahead of you.

Tell Gillespie and Steve Waugh; they ran into one another and broke each others' legs, and they were running directly at one another along the same path. And they weren't competing for the ball.

In fact, Goode wasn't ahead of Payne. Watch it again. He and Payne are both running at an angle toward where the ball will land, so that Goode is coming from Payne's starboard bow. Goode has misjudged it, and changes direction to his right as he jumps, so by the time they make contact he is coming at Payne from almost directly abeam.

Payne however made little or no attempt to jump for the ball

I disagree. He plants his right foot to jump immediately before contact, appears to realises that Goode is there at that moment and aborts his takeoff.

and more importantly he also grabs him in the air.

Again I disagree. He is holding his arms out as he runs with his hands only a few inches apart, ready to catch the ball; as he goes into the collision he spreads his arms wider and never brings them back together again. He then face-butts Goode's hip. As he's landing flat on his back he keeps his right arm half-extended to protect his face from a repeat performance.

Garces was no more than 8 yards away... Had I been refereeing that match and seen that I would have issued a RC as well,

I hope you'd have checked with the TMO first.

 

[Browner]

I'm sure we have all seen the videos showing that the area of your vision does not prove that you must have observed something, only that you physically could have.

In Payne's case if he did not realise an opponent would be jumping for the ball he should not be playing at that level. He got it wrong. How culpable he was is a difficult question, but I don't want to see him make the same mistake again.

Peripheral vision ?

I'd suggest that he was looking in Goodes direction well before he "arrived" .... I agree with OB in that I he would be aware of the arriving player before giving his early match 'rattler'.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure we have all seen the videos showing that the area of your vision does not prove that you must have observed something, only that you physically could have.

In Payne's case if he did not realise an opponent would be jumping for the ball he should not be playing at that level. He got it wrong. How culpable he was is a difficult question, but I don't want to see him make the same mistake again.

Peripheral vision ?

I'd suggest that he was looking in Goodes direction well before he "arrived" .... I agree with OB in that I he would be aware of the arriving player before giving his early match 'rattler'.

 

[RobLev]

Peripheral vision ?

I'd suggest that he was looking in Goodes direction well before he "arrived" .... I agree with OB in that I he would be aware of the arriving player before giving his early match 'rattler'.

- - - Updated - - -



Peripheral vision ?

I'd suggest that he was looking in Goodes direction well before he "arrived" .... I agree with OB in that I he would be aware of the arriving player before giving his early match 'rattler'.

Yes, peripheral vision. Stills can be deceptive. That shot is taken well after Payne has started taking avoiding action. Take another look at the animated gif posted of the incident earlier in the thread; in your still Payne has already planted his right foot, bent his right knee and swung his left foot through in aborting his takeoff, and is about to face-plant Goode's hip. Fractions of a second before, Goode is out of the right side of the frame, because he leaps across Payne's path.

Better still, look at the straight-on replay from 35 seconds in on this page; Payne is clearly looking at the ball until, at the last moment, he sees Goode leaping across him:

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/9254261/moment-of-the-week-payne's-red-card

 

[OB..]

Better still, look at the straight-on replay from 35 seconds in on this page; Payne is clearly looking at the ball until, at the last moment, he sees Goode leaping across him:

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/9254261/moment-of-the-week-payne's-red-card

You are arguing that at this level, a players need not be on the lookout for an opponent jumping for the ball? It happens all the time, so it is hardly a surprising event.

 

[RobLev]

You are arguing that at this level, a players need not be on the lookout for an opponent jumping for the ball? It happens all the time, so it is hardly a surprising event.

No. I'm countering Browner's supposition that he did see Goode.

Where is Goode looking?

 

[RobLev]

Just as a side issue, OB; are you happy with Garces's expressed reasoning for the RC:

"The player...the contact with the ground...is...the head".

 

[RobLev]

Just as a side issue, OB; are you happy with Garces's expressed reasoning for the RC:

Just to be clear; I don't mean the accuracy, but the completeness. It sounds like he's referencing the 2009 memorandum, but that isn't applicable.

 

[winchesterref]

It sounds to me like he is explaining how dangerous and serious the contact was

 

[irishref]

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Rushforth.

This is just BS. If this is a standard for a RC then I do wonder about the future of the game.

Sorry Ian, it was the other non-Dutch Dutchman!

Perhaps semi-blinkered since I'm an Ulsterman but I really was disappointed with the RC.

 

[crossref]

we don't want to create situation where players chase after balls deliberately not looking where they are going.