[INTERNATIONAL] Scotland vs SA - LO try

[Zebra1922]

Scotland’s second try came from an innovative move. Number 7 is in the receiver position, and when the LO is thrown moves into the LO to catch the ball and run through to score. I’ve been nosing around the laws and can’t see where this is permitted. There are references to having a receiver ,and where that receiver may stand ,and reference to players being permitted to change positions, but I don’t see anything which allows the receiver to join the LO and take the ball. (It also looks like the receiver moved towards the LO prior to the throw).

18:26 says the thrower and their oppo May join the LO once the throw has been made and 18:28 says any player in the LO may compete for possession of the ball but there is no specific reference to what the receiver may do. By this do we interpret the receiver is a player in the lineout and can therefore move to join the line? In which case what about the law specifying where the receiver must stand?

 

[crossref]

this is an interesting one (do you have the time on the game? anyone have a link)

In the 2017 Laws it used to say

Once the lineout has commenced , the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

but that text was removed in the current (ie 2018) Laws

There are two possible interpretations of the change :
1 - the receiver is no longer allowed to join the line at all
2 - the receiver can now join the line at any time (ie before or after the throw)

For me the change is (2) and it sounds like Scotland have been examining the new Law book, to see if they can exploit the changes/differences/errors/New Laws (please select your personal preference) , and also deciding that it is (2).

On the other hand 18.16 does specify that the receiver must stand 2m back -- so perhaps the move is illegal now.

 

[Christy]

From memory , didnt scotland do this same move last year against i think england .
All , legal for me .
Might need to go to last year book for more details of whats allowed etc .

 

[Christy]

He needs to wait untill the ball is thrown .
He cant go in before .

 

[didds]

He needs to wait untill the ball is thrown .
He cant go in before .

and as CR has highh;lighted that was specifically icluded in the 2017 lawbook.

but is apprently omitted from the 2018 lawbook.

So what it really means is somewhat... blurred.,.. esepcially when we are told "nothing has changed".

So - did the #7 enter the line of jumpers/catchers/lifters before or after the bgall was released?

UPDATE:

He enters the gap in the lineout well after the throw was made

https://youtu.be/xOWn5d1YfYs?t=224

TRY.

Caveat : Unless someone is going to ping the Scots from putting up lifted pod that clearly is not intendeed to receive the ball - dummy jump? [ I wouldn't FTR ]


Didn't the ABs do something very similar in a RWC final ? maybe without the lifted pod.
UPDATE - similar but not really
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daWu7tbv21M

didds

 

[Zebra1922]

Well he enters the gap well after the throw was made, but whether he moved early or not is difficult to call with the camera angles.

I did not know about the 2017 wording (and I do read the book on occasion, honestly!) so under the assumption ‘nothing has changed’ this looks legal as long as the LO has commenced.

 

[didds]

View attachment 3821

These two static shots from the video are shown almost inperceptively apart - a couple of very fast click on+click off actions. a very few frames.

We can see that the #7 is in the receiver position. If its not 2m then a lot of receiveers are not 2m.

The ball has left the throwers hands and #7 is moving. It is imperceptible - esepcially at full speed - as to whether he encroached oin his 2m (if that is indeed 2m) before the ball left the thrower's hands.

Its not C&O.
try. Well done the Scots for trying something and succeeding.

didds

 

[didds]

Fuerther freeze framing shows he does begin his run before the ball has left thre throwers hands.

So - is that illegal?

We can see from the stills above he hasn't really advanced from his initial position by the time the ball is released. WELL less than a foot lets say. Substantially less probably.


didds

 

[Zebra1922]

I’m not too fussed about whethe he moved just before or just after the ball was thrown, I was interested in whether this sort of move is allowed and the consensus is yes. Let’s not get into a CL debate please! Not C&O he moved early, happy with the try (based on 2017 laws and WRU “no changes” statement)

 

[crossref]

Well, I don't think it is legal.

Reflecting , the Law Book has one Law that covers this and it's really specific

[LAWS]18.16 If a team elects to have a receiver, the receiver stands between the five-metre and the 15-metre lines, two metres away from their team-mates in the lineout. Each team may have only one receiver. Sanction: Free-kick.[/LAWS]

He has to stay 2m back.

That's it really.

 

[Camquin]

I believe that before the ball is thrown participating player may change position, including a receiver and a line out player swapping places.
Once the ball is thrown all participating players - and I believe this includes the receiver - may compete for the ball.

So I do not believe there is a C&O offence.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Well, I don't think it is legal.

Reflecting , the Law Book has one Law that covers this and it's really specific

[LAWS]18.16 If a team elects to have a receiver, the receiver stands between the five-metre and the 15-metre lines, two metres away from their team-mates in the lineout. Each team may have only one receiver. Sanction: Free-kick.[/LAWS]

He has to stay 2m back.

That's it really.

Really?

2018 Law Book Definitions

Participating players at a lineout:

These consist of lineout players, one receiver from each
team (if present), the player who throws in and an immediate opponent.

Law 18. 18 Participating players may change places in the lineout before the ball is thrown.

 

[Dickie E]

Really?

2018 Law Book Definitions

Participating players at a lineout:

These consist of lineout players, one receiver from each
team (if present), the player who throws in and an immediate opponent.

Law 18. 18 Participating players may change places in the lineout before the ball is thrown.

Yes, but once a team chooses to have a receiver, he/she has to be 2 metres back. Up until the throw, he/she can swap places with another participating player. He/she can't just join the lineout (pre-throw) and not have a receiver.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

28. Once the lineout has commenced, any player in the lineout may:
a. Compete for possession of the ball.
b. Catch or deflect the ball. A jumper may catch or deflect the ball with the outside
arm only if they have both hands above their head. Sanction: Free-kick.
c. Lift or support a player from the same team. Players who support or lift a teammate
must lower the player to the ground safely as soon as the ball is won by a
player of either team. Sanction: Free-kick.
d. Leave the lineout so as to be in a position to receive the ball, provided they remain
within 10 metres of the mark of touch and they keep moving until the lineout is
over. Sanction: Free-kick.
e. Grasp and bring an opponent in possession of the ball to ground, provided that
the player is not in the air. Sanction: Penalty.

And furthermore since No laws have changed. we work from there.

 

[Dickie E]

28. Once the lineout has commenced, any player in the lineout may:
a. Compete for possession of the ball.
b. Catch or deflect the ball. A jumper may catch or deflect the ball with the outside
arm only if they have both hands above their head. Sanction: Free-kick.
c. Lift or support a player from the same team. Players who support or lift a teammate
must lower the player to the ground safely as soon as the ball is won by a
player of either team. Sanction: Free-kick.
d. Leave the lineout so as to be in a position to receive the ball, provided they remain
within 10 metres of the mark of touch and they keep moving until the lineout is
over. Sanction: Free-kick.
e. Grasp and bring an opponent in possession of the ball to ground, provided that
the player is not in the air. Sanction: Penalty.

And furthermore since No laws have changed. we work from there.

you might be confusing what is allowed before the ball is thrown with what is allowed after the ball is thrown

 

[UpandUnder]

In classic World Rugby style it looks like the simplified law book has made this a great areas or at least something which is not clearly covered in law.

Definition:
Receiver: The player in a position to receive the ball if it is knocked or passed back from a lineout.
Lineout players: The players in either line of a lineout
Can be interpreted that the receiver is not part of the lineout

EDIT: But is defined as a participating player in the lineout
Participating players at a lineout: These consist of lineout players, one receiver from each team (if present), the player who throws in and an immediate opponent.


18.16 If a team elects to have a receiver, the receiver stands between the five-metre and the 15-metre lines, two metres away from their team-mates in the lineout. Each team may have only one receiver. Sanction: Free-kick.

So the Receiver must be 2 meters away from the lineout. Unfortunately that's the last specific reference as to what the receiver can do, no mention of when then lineout starts

If the receiver is part of the lineout (decide which definition takes priority) then under 18.28 the try is legal

Got to love the new law book

 

[crossref]

So the law carefully defines

Lineout Players .. which does not include the receiver
Participating Players .. which does include the receiver

But then crucially Law 18.28 uses the phrase 'any player in the lineout' which is not defined. Does that mean any lineout player ? Or does it mean any participating player ?

I think this would be worth a clarification request

 

[shep]

Is the player at the front of the lineout entitled to run into the 5m area to drag his opponent forward?

 

[UpandUnder]

Is the player at the front of the lineout entitled to run into the 5m area to drag his opponent forward?

No, but its not something I would disallow a try for per se.

 

[crossref]

Following the usage in Laws 18.13 and 18.14 the phrase "players in the lineout " means Lineout Players