Scottish Independence

[Davet]

By the end of 2014 Scots will have voted in a referendum as to whether they want independence from the UK or not.

My question is simple.

Why are Scots the only ones to have a voice on this?

Why can the English not have a referendum as to whether we prefer Scotland as part of the UK or not?

Or the Welsh?

(and you can work that last one any way round you wish)

 

[Dixie]

The answer lies in basic fairness. Turn it round - if 100% of Brits wanted to leave the EU because it has become a money sink, should their chance of being able to exit the EU be limited by the fact that 240m EU citizens want to continue to benefit from the UK's cash?

Basically, a nation should have the right the self-determination - which includes the right to exit from any political union it may have entered into in the past. This right should not be fettered by the wishes of other members of the union.

 

[Davet]

So if 100% of Scots want to remain, then we have to accept that?

 

[irishref]

So if 100% of Scots want to remain, then we have to accept that?

yes, until the English get their own referendum on whether they want the act of union to be repealed or not. But without a devolved assembly in England, it's going to be tough.

 

[Davet]

irishref - I think that's my point.

Why can we not have a referendum on repealing the Act of Union.

And while we're at it we could have a referendum on whether having Northern Ireland as part of the Kingdom (preferably Republic) is worth the candle.

As far as I'm concerned I can see no reason why Wales and Scotland should not be entirely separate and sovereign nations, and Ulster a part of the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Guyseep]

I don't see this thread ending well. I shall avoid it like the plague.

 

[irishref]

irishref - I think that's my point.

Why can we not have a referendum on repealing the Act of Union.

And while we're at it we could have a referendum on whether having Northern Ireland as part of the Kingdom (preferably Republic) is worth the candle.

As far as I'm concerned I can see no reason why Wales and Scotland should not be entirely separate and sovereign nations, and Ulster a part of the Republic of Ireland.

From a purely democratic point of view, I see your logic. The idea of the UK is a bit anachronistic in modern democracy.

But....... this is a very emotive issue!

 

[andyscott]

The only Scottish people that want to leave the UK an lose the handouts they get from the English tax are the daft ones.

 

[Dixie]

But....... this is a very emotive issue!

I'm not sure that is the case in England at least, though people are obviously rather more committed one way or the other in Ulster.

The English would probably be happy enough on their own if push came to shove, and few are strongly invested in the Union. To the extent that people would rather have it than not, this is not down to ideology or even to lengthy historical bonds of friendship and unity, but rather to a feeling that we are stronger united than separately - even if the added strength provided by the Celts is rather marginal in the context of a London-centric England.

For myself, I would be happy to see it all break up, but if it is to remain I think a devolved English parliament with at least the same powers as that in Scotland is essential.

 

[Taff]

But....... this is a very emotive issue!

Exactly.

The way I see it, the whole thing is similar to a marriage break-up. At the moment, both sides have agreed to be reasonable and explore the possibility of an amicable split. Just wait though and watch the plates smashing as soon as they start discussing how the assets and liabilities are going to be apportioned.

 

[Dixie]

The way I see it, the whole thing is similar to a marriage break-up.

yee--ee--ss, as long as we are talking about an arranged marriage with no love on either side, but where the partners have grown comfortable with each other over the years.

 

[Taff]

yee--ee--ss, as long as we are talking about an arranged marriage with no love on either side, but where the partners have grown comfortable with each other over the years.

True, but one partner feels they are in a rut and thinks they'd be better off without the other one.

 

[Taff]

yee--ee--ss, as long as we are talking about an arranged marriage with no love on either side, but where the partners have grown comfortable with each other over the years.

True, but one partner feels they are in a rut and thinks they'd be better off without the other one.

When push comes to shove, they may well decide that things could be worse and stick to the status quo. Time will tell.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

I haven't read anywhere that there is anything other than an absolute majority needed. So if 50.0001% vote in favour of a split then off they go, only to change their mind next year by 0.0001%.
Should they not set a 60% mark or similar?

 

[4eyesbetter]

It's quite entertaining watching the Tories squirm over this one. On the one hand, they all signed up to be members of what's officially called the "Conservative and Unionist Party". On the other, if Scotland does leave entirely and doesn't try to settle for devo max, they immediately inherit an absolute majority of 50-odd in whatever's left.

Exactly.

The way I see it, the whole thing is similar to a marriage break-up. At the moment, both sides have agreed to be reasonable and explore the possibility of an amicable split. Just wait though and watch the plates smashing as soon as they start discussing how the assets and liabilities are going to be apportioned.

I blame Parliament for not signing a pre-nup with James VI.

 

[Taff]

It's quite entertaining watching the Tories squirm over this one.

As I understand it, politically the Tories would be better off if Scotland did go it alone. I don't know exactly how many Scottish Conservative MPs there are, but they will be rare as hell - in fact bordeline extinct.

• If the Scots vote "No" - the Tories can say "You've had your chance; you don't want it. Now don't mention it again"
• If the Scots vote "Yes" - the Tories will stand a far better chance of forming a Government in England, Wales and NI.

Seems like the Tories can't lose whatever happens.

 

[4eyesbetter]

As I understand it, politically the Tories would be better off if Scotland did go it alone. I don't know exactly how many Scottish Conservative MPs there are, but they will be rare as hell - in fact bordeline extinct.

• If the Scots vote "No" - the Tories can say "You've had your chance; you don't want it. Now don't mention it again"
• If the Scots vote "Yes" - the Tories will stand a far better chance of forming a Government in England, Wales and NI.

Seems like the Tories can't lose whatever happens.

Well, but the thing is that opinion polls regularly show a lot of support for the two middle options which get nebulously referred to as "devo plus" and then "devo max", and there's quite a lot of talk about how the referendum question is just going to be a straight "Queen Y/N?", which leaves plenty of space for people to potentially vote "no" because they want more devolution but for it still to be within the United Kingdom.

 

[Robert Burns]

As long as Scotland gets the oil and gas fields that are in its waters, it will be fine.

There was a paper written in the 70's about what would happen if Scotland got independence, the opinion was so shocking that it was classified top secret until it became public under the freedom of info.

It basically said allowing it then would remove most of England's wealth and would see Scotland having to subsidise England.

Personally, I independence as a bad thing, especially in the current economical climate.

 

[Taff]

As long as Scotland gets the oil and gas fields that are in its waters, it will be fine.

The key words there are "As long as" and I reckon this is where it's going to get ugly.

The British government won't give up the oil and gas fields without a scrap. No doubt they will argue that it was British money that developed the oil and gas fields, it was British money that built Faslane, and other big employers in Scotland etc etc so Scotland can't just trouser them with impunity. Of course the Scots paid something towards them too, but no doubt the British government will point out they didn't pay for most of it, and if they want independence they will have to in effect buy out their erstwhile partner. Is erstwhile still the word of the week BTW?

Well, but the thing is that opinion polls regularly show a lot of support for the two middle options which get nebulously referred to as "devo plus" and then "devo max", and there's quite a lot of talk about how the referendum question is just going to be a straight "Queen Y/N?", which leaves plenty of space for people to potentially vote "no" because they want more devolution but for it still to be within the United Kingdom.

I'm sure you're right, but they agreed that the Scots won't be given that option of voting for anything else. It's a straight Yes or No.

 

[Davet]

The question is promised to be a simple yes or no, so it can't involve options for devo max etc. Since the vote won't address devo max then should the vote be against full independence then that question remains on the btable and may be addressed subsequently.