Scrum difficulties - Help for the novice please!

[Rich]

I refereed a game last week - league 4 - where the scrums proved a complete nightmare.

Despite my best efforts I had various scenarios where front row players were being repeatedly pushed up on both sides alternatively and wheeling scrums. I would be interested to hear what actions I could have taken when it was never clear to me what was the route cause of the issues and how I could have avoided repeat resets. I have re-read the laws of the scrum and cannot reconcile things apart from free kicks for pushing early and PK for not binding properly. I had not come across this scenario before so it was very testing and ended up having reset after reset. Perhaps I should just have taken a hard and decisive line and ping the teams until they settled down???

 

[Ian_Cook]

First up, have a look at this simple scrum check-list by Davet

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?16157-Scrum-Checklist&p=236911&viewfull=1#post236911

Make sure the front rows bind properly and legally. You can save yourself a lot of trouble by making sure of this as a priority.

Don't let the tight head props (THP's) bind like this...

its binding on the opponent's arm and its illegal. Make them bind near where the check mark is, like this...

Familiarise yourself with Law 20.3. Learn how players are and are not allowed to bind.

There are a some obvious illegal ones to look for..

► THP binding on LHP's arm.
► LHP binding on THP's chest
► Flanker slipping forward to bind on his own prop, (especially LHP) instead of his lock. It lets the flanker assist the LHP put pressure on the opposing THP.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I refereed a game last week - league 4 - where the scrums proved a complete nightmare.

Despite my best efforts I had various scenarios where front row players were being repeatedly pushed up on both sides alternatively and wheeling scrums. I would be interested to hear what actions I could have taken when it was never clear to me what was the route cause of the issues and how I could have avoided repeat resets. I have re-read the laws of the scrum and cannot reconcile things apart from free kicks for pushing early and PK for not binding properly. I had not come across this scenario before so it was very testing and ended up having reset after reset. Perhaps I should just have taken a hard and decisive line and ping the teams until they settled down???

Rich as a LSRFUR referee and saying league 4, I assume you mean Herts/Middx 4 or Surrey 4, so we are talking level 12+ or lower even.
These guys are Saturday social players and may be struglging with both fitness & strength and above all suitable technique and knowledge of the actual laws.

So go back to basics - get them tightly bound, crouched in touching distance, etc. Once the ball is in insist on then staying bound and pushing parallel. See the check-list my Society colleague posted as mentioned by Ian Cook.

If the props either do not bind correctly or push non-parallel quickly blow, penailise the specific offence and explain clearly why. Go to your local clunb on a training night(s) and ask to watch and listen to the work on the scrum machine.

If you need to do three or four resets to make your point so be it - especially at level 12+.

 

[Daftmedic]

As a complete noob to refing and never a forward I hade sure I was happy the scrum was settled before allowing the SH to throw the ball in.
This worked a treat because they all new my beady eye was on them and they didnt even realise when I stopped doing it and the scrum was all on them.

 

[Rich]

Rich as a LSRFUR referee and saying league 4, I assume you mean Herts/Middx 4 or Surrey 4, so we are talking level 12+ or lower even.
These guys are Saturday social players and may be struglging with both fitness & strength and above all suitable technique and knowledge of the actual laws.
If you need to do three or four resets to make your point so be it - especially at level 12+.

Yes, Surrey 4. It was so alien to me as I coach one of the very successful Surrey League 1 U13 teams, where this simply does not happen!! I was down refereeing a match in Devon with one of the Devon county teams of the same age and it was like a beautifully oiled machine, so when I was put to the task to deal with a seniors Level 4 match, I was sorely tested....And thought that I must find a way to deal with this "lack" of ability in future, whether it be mine or the teams'

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As a complete noob to refing and never a forward I hade sure I was happy the scrum was settled before allowing the SH to throw the ball in.
This worked a treat because they all new my beady eye was on them and they didnt even realise when I stopped doing it and the scrum was all on them.

Which is probably the right way to go in this instance rather than getting the no9 to put the ball in "without delay", although perhaps a little more stressful for un-fit necks.

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

It's a tough situation. If I have a scrum go south, I try to discern what caused it so I have a potential problem area to focus on at the next scrum. Did it wheel quickly and become unstable? Watch to see if the prop is boring in. FK without hesitation for the first early engagement or early push. And if the scrums don't improve, bring the front rows closer together. It will piss them off, but it will also likely lead,to better scrums.

 

[FlipFlop]

Helpful rule of thumb (for a novice, and at lower levels): If only problems when Team A put in, then I expect Team B to be the issue! So this is where you should concentrate to see what is going wrong.

 

[RobLev]

Helpful rule of thumb (for a novice, and at lower levels): If only problems when Team A put in, then I expect Team B to be the issue! So this is where you should concentrate to see what is going wrong.

That's just what Team A want you to think...

 

[Dixie]

I had various scenarios where front row players were being repeatedly pushed up on both sides alternatively and wheeling scrums.

ST's point about lack of skill, fitness and knowledge is well made. But thinking back to my early games at this sort of level, there was often one guy much bigger than the rest, and the problems would arise on his side. Remember that the laws may have been different back in the day when they played more serious rugby - or even if not, they tried things on but the oppo were good enough and strong enough to counter. But now, when they try the same thing, the oppo can't counter, so it gets ugly and perhaps dangerous.

In general, the laws require that the FR's bind firmly and drive both forward and flat. If you are getting people driven up, then quite likely the dominant FR is driving his oppo upward rather than flat - ping him under 20.8(i):

[LAWS](i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up. A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air, or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Wheeling per se is not illegal (unlike with your U.13 team). As long as both teams are trying to drive forward, the fact that one side is driving faster than the other will produce a legal wheel - and you can let this go on until the FR's are 91 degrees to where they started, at which point you give the scrum to the side that did not have the ball when 91 degrees was reached. The illegal wheel occurs when either one team drives diagonally to produce the wheel, or else one side of the scrum pulls his oppo onto him, effectively stepping back so the scrum pivots around the hooker. This is the "whip wheel" - FK under 20.2(a) if it's only marginal (or you are less than 100% sure):

[LAWS](a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

or more likely PK under 20.8(g):

[LAWS](g) Twisting, dipping or collapsing. Front row players must not twist or lower their bodies, or pull opponents, or do anything that is likely to collapse the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

 

[Rich]

ST's point about lack of skill, fitness and knowledge is well made. But thinking back to my early games at this sort of level, there was often one guy much bigger than the rest, and the problems would arise on his side......]

I won't quote the whole post but great stuff. Very helpful comments. Might even print this off to do some "old style" revision :hap:

Many thanks to the rest of you too, this has been much more useful than trying to get my head around the application of my laws book to good effect.

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per se[/I] is not illegal (unlike with your U.13 team).

not as such illegal at U13, they just mustn't go beyond 45 degrees.

 

[Taff]

.... not as such illegal at U13, they just mustn't go beyond 45 degrees.

Don't forget that intentionally wheeling a scrum at U19 is a PK offence.

If it does get wheeled accidentally the scrum gets reset, but the ball isn't turned over. Ie the same side throw in again.

 

[Dixie]

not as such illegal at U13, they just mustn't go beyond 45 degrees.

Don't forget that intentionally wheeling a scrum at U19 is a PK offence.

Yes - that was my poor communciation. I meant to stress the intentionality of such wheeling, rather than just the effect itself.