[Scrum] Scrum half going back 5m

[chbg]

A new one yesterday in a BUCS match: the non-throwing SH started in the traditional position next to his oppo; as soon as the ball was in, he retreated at high speed back to the offside line 5m behind the rearmost foot. Would you allow that?


It is the offside line for "players not in the scrum" (20.12g). However he did not go to the opposite side of the scrum and step in front of the back foot (20.12d); nor did he move away from the scrum and step in front of the hindmost foot (20.12e).


I allowed him to do it, which seems to be right, although in retrospect I could have advised him that he did not need to go so far back. Until recently, didn't SH have to remain 'close' to the scrum, rather than anywhere across the pitch behind the hindmost foot?


In the 2nd Half, his scrum then won the ball AFTER he had retreated back to the 5m line. He immediately came forward to take it from the back of the scrum. For me that was offside in front of the 5m line (the ball was still at No 8's feet). He had taken himself away from the scrum (there doesn't have to be a SH (20.12f), so for me could not join/re-join halfway through. It was too quick for me to prevent him playing the ball, so I penalised. The other team scored from the PK!

On query, his skipper was fully content with my explanation that he had 3 options: follow the other SH; stay at the hindmost foot; or stay back 5m.

Strangely enough he didn't go back 5m any more! However perhaps I was over-jealous in not allowing him to come forward, as his off-side line was only ever the hindmost foot?

Grateful for opinions in case it ever arises again. I also have contact with the coach and will advise him of our considered forum position. The skipper did advise me in the PMB that they might not contest at the line-out; this would also be something unusual of which they could advise the referee in advance.

 

[Phil E]

He can retreat to the 5m offside line for other players if he wishes, but he then becomes one of those other players and can't come forward again. You were correct to penalise him.

If he stays with the scrum he must remain within 1m or retreat to the back foot, from where he can traverse across the pitch, but not cone forward of the back foot, which is his offside line if he doesn't follow the ball round.

 

[ChrisR]

I think you've thought it through correctly.

No, he didn't have to retreat to the 5m. And, if he had only retreated to the hind foot but moved away from the scrum would you have allowed him to return to play the ball when his team won it? Yes, you would and so would I so i agree that you were overly strict in prohibiting him from returning from 5m away.

Now, I'm not sure of the law if he had started 5m away and then encroached.

 

[didds]

I can't even think of a reason for him to go back to the 5m line - especially on his own ball!

I'd really womnder if he has played SH much at all? Or if not if he does it in most games, what on earth is his coach doing?

bizarre.

Didds

PS I agree - PK him for encroaching. He'll learn quicker that way!

 

[DocY]

I can't even think of a reason for him to go back to the 5m line - especially on his own ball!

Not knowing the laws, I expect.

FWIW, I think you were a bit harsh penalising him for re-joining (I'm assuming this wasn't a top-level game here). I can't see how it's material and certainly not an advantage for him - had he only retreated 4 and a half meters, he'd have been fully entitled (in law) to go back to the scrum. A good case for ATP.

 

[DocY]

Now, I'm not sure of the law if he had started 5m away and then encroached.

Definitely offside - 20.12 (a) - and as I can only see this arising when you'd just asked "where's the scrum half?" "we want him as an extra 3/4" it'd be far more deserved.

 

[merge]

Do you have a law reference for the scrum half's offside line becoming 5m back? 20.12(a) defines where they must start, but the rest of 20.12 defines the offside lines for the SH (in the first case 20.12(e) applies - the back foot, while the second 20.12(b) - in front of the ball - as they are the team in possession.) Though a team doesn't need a SH, this player clearly is the SH as they started next to the scrum.

20.12(g) is the 5m offside line for "[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half".

Literally reading the laws a team could nominate any of the back line as "scrum half" starting 5m back - 20.12(a) only states a starting point, 20.12(f) says it any player can be SH [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]- and advancing to the back foot - 20.12(e). I suspect this isn't what 20.12(a) was actually trying to say.[/FONT]

 

[DocY]

Do you have a law reference for the scrum half's offside line becoming 5m back? 20.12(a) defines where they must start, but the rest of 20.12 defines the offside lines for the SH (in the first case 20.12(e) applies - the back foot, while the second 20.12(b) - in front of the ball - as they are the team in possession.) Though a team doesn't need a SH, this player clearly is the SH as they started next to the scrum.

20.12(g) is the 5m offside line for "[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half".

Literally reading the laws a team could nominate any of the back line as "scrum half" starting 5m back - 20.12(a) only states a starting point, 20.12(f) says it any player can be SH [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]- and advancing to the back foot - 20.12(e). I suspect this isn't what 20.12(a) was actually trying to say.[/FONT]

I think you're right - the OP sounds like it's completely described by 20.12(e) to me.

 

[OB..]

I think the problem lies in assuming that the player with #9 on his back is the scrum half at all times.. We know that at lineouts it is common enough to have a forward in the scrum half position.

Suppose the #9 picks up a knock retires to the wing. At the next scrum #11 fills in at scrum half. Would you penalise him for not being the scrum half?

For me the only consistent interpretation is that the scrum half is the (sole) person who takes up the scrum half position/role when such is specified. If he starts in the standard scrum half position at a scrum and then retires behind the 5m offside line, he stops being a scrum half and becomes an "other player".That means the team has no scrum half. If his team wins the ball against the head, then the #8 will have to deal with it.

There is obviously some confused thinking going on in this match, but IMHO it was correct to penalise him for trying to come back into the scrum half position. Ignorantia juris neminem excusat is a good starting point.

 

[DocY]

There is obviously some confused thinking going on in this match, but IMHO it was correct to penalise him for trying to come back into the scrum half position. Ignorantia juris neminem excusat is a good starting point.

Going back to merge's point: under which law would you penalise him? The only references I can find in the lawbook (and it's quite possible I've missed the pertinent one) say that if the SH leaves the scrum, he must stay behind the back foot (20.12 d and 3, although they specifically refer to the team who didn't win the ball, I can see no references at all to the team who did win the ball) - I can't find anything to change that if he goes 4 meters back or 5 meters back.

 

[OB..]

Going back to merge's point: under which law would you penalise him? The only references I can find in the lawbook (and it's quite possible I've missed the pertinent one) say that if the SH leaves the scrum, he must stay behind the back foot (20.12 d and 3, although they specifically refer to the team who didn't win the ball, I can see no references at all to the team who did win the ball) - I can't find anything to change that if he goes 4 meters back or 5 meters back.

I take the view that if he goes back past the 5m offside line he is no longer the team's scrum half. I think it gets very silly otherwise, particularly if you start arguing about 4.5m v 5m.

 

[crossref]

Going back to merge's point: under which law would you penalise him? The only references I can find in the lawbook (and it's quite possible I've missed the pertinent one) say that if the SH leaves the scrum, he must stay behind the back foot (20.12 d and 3, although they specifically refer to the team who didn't win the ball, I can see no references at all to the team who did win the ball) - I can't find anything to change that if he goes 4 meters back or 5 meters back.

Unless I thought it was somehow part of an incredibly cunning and sophisticated deception calcualted to get an illegal advantage (can't see how!), I wouldn't penalise him, I'd just tell him not to do that again.

 

[Phil E]

So it seems that you would penalise someone who started on the 5m line and came forward, but not someone who retreated behind it, and then came forward. Interesting :chin:

 

[thepercy]

Why is he not allowed to stand any distance he likes, behind his offside line? I think anyone that says he is no longer SH and has to stay at the offside line for other players is making it up. If he starts next to the scrum he is the SH, and has special offside lines. If he starts with the other players he is an other player a must stay there.

 

[OB..]

Why is he not allowed to stand any distance he likes, behind his offside line? I think anyone that says he is no longer SH and has to stay at the offside line for other players is making it up. If he starts next to the scrum he is the SH, and has special offside lines. If he starts with the other players he is an other player a must stay there.

We have a weird situation, which almost certainly was not considered by the law makers. Assuming there are bits of law that could be applied to it is an unsatisfactory approach. I am trying to use common sense in interpreting the laws. I cannot see any rugby sense in the more literal approaches.

(I can't honestly see that we are learning much from this debate about a freak situation.)

 

[Phil E]

I am sure there was a WR clarification of some sort that said this was the case when the 5m at the scrum came into being.
It's the way everyone I know has always refereed it, so I am surprised it is even a question. but clearly some people think differently.

By the way, the person at the scrum is effectively an acting scrum half or dummy half, since anyone can do that job, it doesn't have to be the No 9.

Edit:
I just found a set of ELV FAQ's from when the 5m offside line was introduced to the scrum.

[LAWS]Law 20 - Scrum
11. Introduction of an offside line 5 metres behind the hindmost feet of the scrum.
Q. Where does the defending SH have to stand?
A. Either by the throw in or 5m back at start of scrum
Q. What can the defending SH do once the opposition have won the ball?
A. S/he can retreat to within 1m of scrum or drop back to 5m
Q. If SH goes back 5m can s/he re-advance?
A. No, not until the ball leaves the scrum
Q. If the SH drops back how far can s/he go around the other side of the scrum?
A. Within 1m but cannot advance in front of back feet of his/her #8
Q. Do the 5m OS lines move with a moving scrum?
A. Yes (but not into in-goal)
12. Identification of scrum half offside lines
Q. How will players at lower levels know where 5m back is?
A. The referee may ask Club TJs to indicate the 5m. Hopefully all parties will exercise some commonsense
[/LAWS]

Also just found the official IRB (as it was then) guide to the ELV's (Experimental Law Variations) as they were then called.

Snipped this bit out:

[LAWS]Example c
The non-ball-winning scrum half may
decide to move to or beyond the
offside line 5 metres behind the
hindmost foot of that player’s team,
but once there, must remain behind
the offside line until the scrum is over.[/LAWS]

 

[didds]

OB's valid point about freak situations notwithstanding.. ;-)

so regarding the back foot o/side line (OSL) and the 5m OSL... purely for speculation and fun etc...

if the (acting) #9 starts to retreat to the 5m OSL... has he actuially left the scrum for these purposes when he actually crosses that 5m OSL, never to return? Can he in fact go back 4.99999999m and then return unchallenged? CF the 10m "box" at LOs that some moot is the depth a peeling player can legally run around in?

Or is there a sort of quasi-zombie not-offside but out of the game state between the rear foot OSL and the 5m OSL ? where he is technically O/S but he can't just teleport form rear foot OSL to 5m OSL, and so is accepted tthat he has to move in this transitory state ?

Humour me ;-)

didds

 

[Phil E]

Humour me ;-)

Chopper is alive and well!

 

[didds]

LOL!

didds

 

[thepercy]

I am sure there was a WR clarification of some sort that said this was the case when the 5m at the scrum came into being.
It's the way everyone I know has always refereed it, so I am surprised it is even a question. but clearly some people think differently.

By the way, the person at the scrum is effectively an acting scrum half or dummy half, since anyone can do that job, it doesn't have to be the No 9.

Edit:
I just found a set of ELV FAQ's from when the 5m offside line was introduced to the scrum.

[LAWS]Law 20 - Scrum
11. Introduction of an offside line 5 metres behind the hindmost feet of the scrum.
Q. Where does the defending SH have to stand?
A. Either by the throw in or 5m back at start of scrum
Q. What can the defending SH do once the opposition have won the ball?
A. S/he can retreat to within 1m of scrum or drop back to 5m
Q. If SH goes back 5m can s/he re-advance?
A. No, not until the ball leaves the scrum
Q. If the SH drops back how far can s/he go around the other side of the scrum?
A. Within 1m but cannot advance in front of back feet of his/her #8
Q. Do the 5m OS lines move with a moving scrum?
A. Yes (but not into in-goal)
12. Identification of scrum half offside lines
Q. How will players at lower levels know where 5m back is?
A. The referee may ask Club TJs to indicate the 5m. Hopefully all parties will exercise some commonsense
[/LAWS]

Also just found the official IRB (as it was then) guide to the ELV's (Experimental Law Variations) as they were then called.

Snipped this bit out:

[LAWS]Example c
The non-ball-winning scrum half may
decide to move to or beyond the
offside line 5 metres behind the
hindmost foot of that player’s team,
but once there, must remain behind
the offside line until the scrum is over.[/LAWS]

Was there a last foot of scrum offside line during the ELV?