scrum on the 22

[Colt]

game today, white not straight at line, green 22 being the middle, green elect for a scrum. Form on cross of 15 & 22 green 9 " will there be gain in ground if we kick from inside our 22 Sir", "no" says I, "ok" says 9, yells at his 10 my response and subsequent pass back from green 9 to 10 goes out to the backs and we all trot up the field.

Really good tempered game between two local sides, about 18 mins still to go and green very close to levelling the score, with white going on to win, which everyone thought was a fair result.

I have to say I gave a quick response to a quick question, it was accepted and we all got on with the game. That said I was not sure why I said 'no' so have checked the ELV document, and the law book, on my return home, that conviniently has no diagram or words to cover my senario

Was I right, and why. I believe it was the right response, that said I also believe that the ball, being put in over the line of the 22 and touching down on same, but in reality green side of 22, but not too much so(!) meant the ball was already in the 22 so 10 could have kicked a ball for gain in ground.

I liked the acceptance of my response, was in keeping with the tenor of the game, just not sure it was the best advice.

 

[Greg Collins]

wow what a coincidence....

identical situation in my game. much grinding of the brain cogs. Mark was on 22 line therefore in 22 therefore should have been just the same as say a scrum on the 5m line.....

...but I got it wrong and told them, "no gain in ground if you kick." Ho hum.

 

[Scarlet Al]

Hmm...

If I'm thinking about this properly - I think that 10 could gain in ground because ball on 22 = ball in 22 I think.

 

[Colt]

just the same as say a scrum on the 5m line..... but is this not pre ELV days, hence my question

 

[KML1]

This is why it's important to make the marks clearly inside or outside of the 22. As a lineout management tactic, I always try and put one of the sides on a line, therefore also eliminating this scenario from being an issue. All good in hindsight...

 

[ExHookah]

On the touchline is in touch
On the Goalline is in-goal
On the dead ball line is dead
......

 

[wolfie]

I think your right if Green put the ball in the scrum on the 22, then they took it in to the 22, so no gain in ground. I came across this quite early in the season and now try to set the whole scrum either in or out of the 22. Your scrum was from a line-out so not much scope for shifting, but like you I have also found that in this type of scenario teams accept the ref's answer without argument.

 

[The umpire]

If the scrum was stable and square then thescrum half would have one foot inside the 22 and one outside, so he's in the 22, so they didn't take it in = gain on ground in my view.

 

[Adam]

I asked this question at an ELV workshop. They said the gain in ground was determined by where the scrum half picked up the ball: not where he put it in.

 

[Adam]

Oops! Sent it twice!!!

 

[Toby Warren]

I asked this question at an ELV workshop. They said the gain in ground was determined by where the scrum half picked up the ball: not where he put it in.

Disagree - It's about how it got into the 22 not the fact that it is there.

In your case - I think that the gain in ground should have been allowed the 22 line is part of the 22 in my view.

If the scrum is outside the 22 but the scrum half picks it up in the 22 - no gain in ground as in my view the defenders have put it there (i.e. by means of the hook.)

As always a quick clear answer gets you out of a lot of situations. I bet the players didn't even notice or question it.

 

[Deeps]

I treat the ELV literally. If either scrum half puts the ball in outside the 22 and the defenders carry it over while in the scrum and win it in the 22 then no gain in ground.

If either scrum half puts the ball in inside the 22 then yes to a gain in ground.

 

[OB..]

We have been told locally (presumably cascaded down from RFU) that what matters is where you make the mark for the scrum. If it is on or behind the 22, then the defending side did NOT take it into the 22 when winning the ball.

 

[chopper15]

We have been told locally (presumably cascaded down from RFU) that what matters is where you make the mark for the scrum. If it is on or behind the 22, then the defending side did NOT take it into the 22 when winning the ball.

What's to do if you hold the ball and put the shove on which takes the ball just outside your 22m?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Chopper - you answer your own question. The shove on takes the ball outside the 22m ! So if it ends up back in there it must have ben taken in.

 

[chopper15]

Chopper - you answer your own question. The shove on takes the ball outside the 22m ! So if it ends up back in there it must have ben taken in.

Agree, but I was taking up OB's comment, Simon. ' . . where you make the mark for the scrum . . . then the defending side did NOT take it into the 22 when winning the ball.'

 

[David J.]

I think I see where this is going....ugh.

Do we have to keep track of where in the scrum the ball is bouncing around (which isn't uncommon at the lower levels)? Realistically, I don't see it happening. I'm watching the backs offsides, the props and flankers binds, heads popping up, the wheel, flankers hands, etc.

It would seem easiest to just look at the tunnel on the put in and where the SH takes it out on the other. But there's no precedence for that as far as I know.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Ah but Chopper rugby is a dynamic game (well as long it isn't England playing !), so if the ball is thrown in inside 22m and then taken out by large shove on (bit stupid of forwards to do that though !) and #8 ends up outside and ball then passed back is it no gain ?

So what about the t'other way around ? Ball thrown in outside 22m, ball hoked and #8 inside (static or scrum pushed back) it has been taken back in - my understanding of RFU ELV advice is that is also taken back in, so also no gain.

Doesn't seem logical.

I will ask for clarification from HQ.

 

[Colt]

just so I understand!

On green 22, green 9 put in win ball 10 kicks out, gain in ground, fine.
green 22, white attacking, put in slightly, if I'm lucky, skews in white favour, now outside 22 line, green win against the head, taken ball in, green 10 hoofs it out, should be no gain in ground?

Pre Elv the minutiae did not seem to matter now it becomes critical. I have always worked on the premise that the winners should be favoured for their efforts, it seems this may now not be the case.

 

[gillburt]

Ah but Chopper rugby is a dynamic game

OMG! First RU, then RL and now Chopper Rugby.....