Shot Clock Why?

BikingBud


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What is the point of the shot clock if nobody bothers?
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Much comment about Farrell's lack of awareness but surely the match officials, team of 4, need to show they are aware and applying the laws.

Law 8.21: Penalty Goal: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.
 
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jdeagro


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What is the point of the shot clock if nobody bothers?

Fair question. I often find it lapse, inconsequentially, frequently at lower levels, like what I play at, too. As a captain, if I'm confident it elapsed, I normally look at the ref and make a gesture pointing to my wrist to make them aware, but I've always been shrugged away. lol.
 

Volun-selected


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Is the root cause that, with the exception of 7s, for years nobody really applied the laws (both 8.21 and also 8.8d for conversions) unless the kicker really took liberties?

Personally, since I’m invariably the time keeper I’ll try to manage it and remind the kicker as they set up with “remember, clock’s ticking, you've got about x left”. For younger teams I’ll also gently prompt the kicker at say 30 and 10 seconds out if it’s not clear they’re about to commence their approach. Works for me.
 

crossref


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At grassroots level delay is normally about finding the tee. Or even the ball.
Unless teams are deliberately wasting time I don't think refs should normally worry about shot clock

In the elite game it's the easiest thing in the world to enforce rigidly. If WR don't like that they can change the Law

(Bottom line. .it's a misconceived Law)
 

BikingBud


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Fair question. I often find it lapse, inconsequentially, frequently at lower levels, like what I play at, too. As a captain, if I'm confident it elapsed, I normally look at the ref and make a gesture pointing to my wrist to make them aware, but I've always been shrugged away. lol.
But is it inconsequential - If Saints had lost by fewer than 3 points, what then?

The fact that Saints kept pressing and keeping the scoreboard running with some intelligent play and great kicking by Smith and Munster maybe thought they'd wrapped it up means it doesn't appear to have affected the outcome but we can never know.
At grassroots level delay is normally about finding the tee. Or even the ball.
Unless teams are deliberately wasting time I don't think refs should normally worry about shot clock

In the elite game it's the easiest thing in the world to enforce rigidly. If WR don't like that they can change the Law

(Bottom line. .it's a misconceived Law)
Almost as easy to enforce as sanctions for:
  • Squint scrum feeds
  • Squint line out throws
  • Players in front of kicker at kick offs
  • Players in front of kickers at box kicks
  • Players in front of hindmost feet at rucks/mauls
@crossref - Perhaps you could expand on misconceived law, do we not want to see the game being played with ball in play for longer and fewer interruptions? This will surely reward those that are fit enough to play a sustained high tempo game.
 

crossref


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@crossref - Perhaps you could expand on misconceived law, do we not want to see the game being played with ball in play for longer and fewer interruptions? This will surely reward those that are fit enough to play a sustained high tempo game.
At the elite level with visible shot clocks and a 4th official to operate it, I thought it seemed like a good Law, but WR don't seem to have the courage of their convictions as it's not enforced. So bringing in a shiny new law you don't seem to really believe in, is misconceived

At grass roots it's an unnecessary sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut. I don't remember ever having a problem over slow kicks (except the general problem of never being able to find a tee!)

If there ever was a time wasting problem, we have lots of tools to mange it.. we dont need a shot clock, which isn't helpful anyway as no one there can see my watch (and I don't want to stand there at a PK focussing on my watch, amd relaying a countdown ..I have other things to watch for )

Hence misconceived
 
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smeagol


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Is the root cause that, with the exception of 7s, for years nobody really applied the laws (both 8.21 and also 8.8d for conversions) unless the kicker really took liberties?

Personally, since I’m invariably the time keeper I’ll try to manage it and remind the kicker as they set up with “remember, clock’s ticking, you've got about x left”. For younger teams I’ll also gently prompt the kicker at say 30 and 10 seconds out if it’s not clear they’re about to commence their approach. Works for me.

If the kicker takes a while to set up, I’ll let them know as they set up how much time they have. I’ll give a final warning at 15s.

I’ll tweak my verbiage if it affects half/full time.

Even at grassroots, IMO the kicker needs to have a plan for getting the tee on promptly.
 

jdeagro


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But is it inconsequential - If Saints had lost by fewer than 3 points, what then?

Sorry, perhaps poor choice of words. I meant that the kicking team lapsed their time without consequence from the ref, as they allowed play on with the kick every time I've seen it.
 

shebeen

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What is the point of the shot clock if nobody bothers?
View attachment 4733
Much comment about Farrell's lack of awareness but surely the match officials, team of 4, need to show they are aware and applying the laws.

Law 8.21: Penalty Goal: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.
Manie Libbok takes FOREVER to kick, and is constantly down to single digits.
Well done to Luke Pearce for enforcing this one over the weekend.


He has been warned by refs before, and surprised this is the first time (in my memory) that he has transgressed. The simple answer is to get a quicker routine, seems obvious if you have a dedicated kicking coach already to work on this.


(but I guess this game probably needs it's own thread from the chaotic final quarter)
 

shebeen

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ditto

putting the ball in straight
staying on feet at rucks
being behind the kicker at kick off/restart

ad infinitum...
can add defensive scrumhalf pushing his opponent directly after the put-in.
 

BikingBud


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Manie Libbok takes FOREVER to kick, and is constantly down to single digits.
Well done to Luke Pearce for enforcing this one over the weekend.


He has been warned by refs before, and surprised this is the first time (in my memory) that he has transgressed. The simple answer is to get a quicker routine, seems obvious if you have a dedicated kicking coach already to work on this.


(but I guess this game probably needs it's own thread from the chaotic final quarter)
Muppet commentators again why would you expect them to understand the game and the laws, but you can clearly see the clock in the corner of the pitch at the end of the advertising hoardings, showing "Investec"

But perhaps more critically the kicker should know where the clock is and should know what the timing is for their routine. The timing was spot on from the time the try was awarded and Luke Pearce was spot on for calling it out👏
 

shebeen

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Muppet commentators again why would you expect them to understand the game and the laws, but you can clearly see the clock in the corner of the pitch at the end of the advertising hoardings, showing "Investec"

But perhaps more critically the kicker should know where the clock is and should know what the timing is for their routine. The timing was spot on from the time the try was awarded and Luke Pearce was spot on for calling it out👏
I think they are in a studio in london - and therefore they are watching from the same screen you see.

And they do say that the mistake is from stormers management, and specifically the kicking coach who is the guy who takes the tee on.
 

BikingBud


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In terms of the Libokke incident, bear in mind the pundits are being paid for their extensive and credible knowledge of the game to enhance the enjoyment of the watching public!

Moreover if they can see the same as I can, and bear in mind the clock tends to be in a similar location for all grounds, their professional and extensive game knowledge should enable them to locate said clock and highlight to the ignorant public that the clock is running down and comment that the kicker who is solely responsible for their own conduct and the execution of the kick within the directed time limit is not going to complete the action within the prescribed time limit and is at risk of being pinged.

Otherwise the pundits and their comments can only be assessed as unqualified and incompetent. Oh wait a minute!!

Maybe in the absence of Rassie the torch we see players unable to manage their own decisions ;)
 

Locke


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At grassroots level delay is normally about finding the tee. Or even the ball.
Unless teams are deliberately wasting time I don't think refs should normally worry about shot clock

In the elite game it's the easiest thing in the world to enforce rigidly. If WR don't like that they can change the Law

(Bottom line. .it's a misconceived Law)
I don’t like teams with the lead taking as long as possible to take the conversion kick. I think 90 seconds is more than enough time. I give a 45 second and a 15 second warning, if I don’t perceive that the kicker is about to start his run.
Never had to call it off for expired shot clock. I think everyone appreciates the clear communication and can respect keeping the game moving and getting the ball back in play.
 

crossref


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I don’t like teams with the lead taking as long as possible to take the conversion kick. I think 90 seconds is more than enough time. I give a 45 second and a 15 second warning, if I don’t perceive that the kicker is about to start his run.
Never had to call it off for expired shot clock. I think everyone appreciates the clear communication and can respect keeping the game moving and getting the ball back in play.
i might do something similar - i.e. exactly the same as what we did before they brought in the 90s shot clock law, and paying no attention whatsoever to the 90s shot clock law

that's kinda what I meant when I said the Law is unnecessary at grass roots.
 

smeagol


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I don’t like teams with the lead taking as long as possible to take the conversion kick. I think 90 seconds is more than enough time.
Even at grassroots, most kickers I encounter are aware of the shot clock. Milking the clock is well within the rights of the kicker - the onus is on the other side to not give up the try!
 

DocP


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I have had a few games now at grassroots where opposition captains are mentioning the shot clock for pens and conversions. This has only happened as it has been highlighted by actions on the telly.
It really is interesting to see things that no one cared about until an incident in the elite game and then all of the sudden players at Old Fartonians V are requesting the same treatment and outcome.
 

didds

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I don’t like teams with the lead taking as long as possible to take the conversion kick. I think 90 seconds is more than enough time. I give a 45 second and a 15 second warning, if I don’t perceive that the kicker is about to start his run.
Never had to call it off for expired shot clock. I think everyone appreciates the clear communication and can respect keeping the game moving and getting the ball back in play.
the laws allow 90 seconds for the kick. Ive no isue with the kick being prevented once 90s is up. But if the kicker takes 89.9 seconds to connect boot to ball thats legal. Whether its used to run the clock down, or because its windy, or because the routine always takes 89.9 seconds ... is irrelevant. The law doesn't say "90 seconds but really has to be done in 30".

Presumably if the ref truly believes the kicker is using the full 90-ish to run the clock down, the ref can invoke law 9.7(d)


Unfair play
  • A player must not:
    ...
7. d. Waste time.
Sanction: Free Kick


If 9.7d isnt' invoked QED it can't have been time wasting.
 

didds

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I have had a few games now at grassroots where opposition captains are mentioning the shot clock for pens and conversions. This has only happened as it has been highlighted by actions on the telly.
It really is interesting to see things that no one cared about until an incident in the elite game and then all of the sudden players at Old Fartonians V are requesting the same treatment and outcome.
Is there a "shot clock" normally available at community level? There isn't at DRFC.

Other than the ref's watch which nobody else can see.
 
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