Simultaneous Grounding

[Toby Warren]

Glo v wasps - Horton caught napping and Sharples comes in to try and ground it.

Net result it appears that Horton JUST got it down first.

But what's the call if there is simultaneous grounding in goal. Try or no try?

 

[scarletjack]

I would say TRY (benefit of the doubt to attacking team)

 

[DrSTU]

tough one. Law only says first so no help there!

I think that without TMO help you'd have to make the call yourself but I'd probably reward the attacking play.

 

[scarletjack]

some one is not going to be happy and will disagree (one thing for sure the ref will be on the loosing end)

 

[Toby Warren]

In the weeds really easy - make a call and sell it - but at elite level interested in the call.

 

[Taff]

Was the ball being carried? If it was, the ball carrier grounds the ball first.

If the ball was loose and there is doubt who grounded first, I thought it was an attacking 5m scrum.

 

[scarletjack]

In the weeds really easy - make a call and sell it - but at elite level interested in the call.

refs decision is easy TMO please:biggrin:

 

[Davet]

Was the ball being carried? If it was, the ball carrier grounds the ball first.

If the ball was loose and there is doubt who grounded first, I thought it was an attacking 5m scrum.

Agree with both parts of this.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Was the ball being carried? If it was, the ball carrier grounds the ball first.

If the ball was loose and there is doubt who grounded first, I thought it was an attacking 5m scrum.

I disagree with the first part but not the secnd part. Whether the ball is being carried or not is irrelevent. Both scenarios are covered in Law.....

22.15 DOUBT ABOUT GROUNDING
If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in the in-goal, play is re-started by a 5-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded. The attacking team throws in the ball.

 

[Taff]

I disagree with the first part but not the secnd part. Whether the ball is being carried or not is irrelevent. Both scenarios are covered in Law.....

But if the ball is being carried, the BC just needs to touch the ground; whereas the other player has to put "downward pressure" on the ball.

 

[Ian_Cook]

But if the ball is being carried, the BC just needs to touch the ground; whereas the other player has to put "downward pressure" on the ball.

Scenario 1
The ball has been kicked ahead and two players are chasing it; a defender and an attacker. Just before the tryline, the ball "pops" up and both players grab it simultaneously. They fall to ground in-goal and the ball is grounded with both players having hands on the ball.... the ball is not loose, so who is the ball carrier. Does 22.15 apply to this situation?

Scenario 2
A 5m scrum, the attacking No.8 picks up the ball and as he skirts around the scrum, the openside flanker detaches and grabs the ball. Both players are holding the ball, wrestling for it. They fall to ground in-goal still wrestling, and the ball is grounded with both players having hands on the ball.... the ball is not loose, so who is the ball carrier. Does 22.15 apply to this situation?

I have never seen the first scenario actually happen, although I have seen some pretty close to this.

I have, however, seen the second scenario more than once.

 

[Toby Warren]

There is no doubt they both grounded it!

Sure there is a ruling saw this previously in a super 14 as was game.

 

[Taff]

There is no doubt they both grounded it!

But if the ball was being carried who grounded it first?

I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever seen a scenario 1.

Re scenario 2, I would argue that a defender just "getting hand on the ball" wasn't good enough. He needs to either get under the ball or get possession of it.

 

[Robert Burns]

Doubt about grounding 5m scrum to attackers, doesn't matter how the doubt occurs.

I agree in grassroots either be honest and sell the fact that both grounded together and that's a 5m scrum attack, or sell the decision of try (I would not recommend selling a drop out :buttkick:

 

[Toby Warren]

But Robert, there is no doubt. It was grounded simultaneously. If you know exactly what happened how is there doubt?

 

[Dixie]

I would say TRY (benefit of the doubt to attacking team)

I think from a law-based standpoint wiser counsel prevails later in the thread - but in practice you may well be correct.

tough one. Law only says first so no help there!

I think that without TMO help you'd have to make the call yourself but I'd probably reward the attacking play.

Ditto.

Was the ball being carried? If it was, the ball carrier grounds the ball first.

If the ball was loose and there is doubt who grounded first, I thought it was an attacking 5m scrum.

Spot the Wiser Counsel emerging!

Doubt about grounding 5m scrum to attackers, doesn't matter how the doubt occurs.

And here's where it gets really interesting, as it DOES seem to matter in practice. IMO, (and as Taff notes) when the ball is being carried the invariable practice is to award the try to the attacking ball carrier. We see this at mauls where the defenders have hands on the ball when it hits the ground; presumably, there's no difference between that and the situation where both attacker and defender simultaneously catch the ball and then ground it.

I don't say that's correct, but it does seem sensible and backed up by practice. I'd say it's time for law to come into line with practice.

 

[OB..]

IRB Ruling 3 of 2010

If the ball is kicked into in-goal by a player from the attacking team and
the ball is made dead by the players touching the ball down but the
match officials cannot determine which player touched the ball down Law
22.15 applies and the referee awards a five metre scrum with the
attacking team throws in the ball.

I was in the stand at the end where the Sharples incident occurred, but unfortunately down the other end of it, so I could see nothing at all though the people standing up!

 

[Ian_Cook]

But Robert, there is no doubt. It was grounded simultaneously. If you know exactly what happened how is there doubt?

No. Simultaneous grounding is unlikely in the extreme. It is far more likely that one of them will have been first (even if only by less than a millisecond). That means doubt, because no-one can judge who was first, especially not the referee, at ground level with one look from one angle.

 

[Taff]

No. Simultaneous grounding is unlikely in the extreme. It is far more likely that one of them will have been first (even if only by less than a millisecond). That means doubt, because no-one can judge who was first, especially not the referee, at ground level with one look from one angle.

This is where I think it's important to distinguish between the ball being carried and a loose ball.

If the ball is loose, I agree if there's any doubt then it's a 5m attacking scrum as both players need downward pressure. Sometimes, there's just no way you can tell.

However, if the ball is being carried and a defender tries to muscle in and touch the ball down too, it's got to be a try. The ball carrier merely has to "touch" the ground with the ball to score. The defender however has to get "downward pressure" on the ball to touch it down - ie he's got to do more than the ball carrier. There will be a split second where the ball has touched the ground but the defender hasn't yet got downward pressure - I accept it will be small, but we can't deny that it will exist.

By the time the defender has "downward pressure" the try will already have been scored. All he's done is helped the ball carrier to score; if he wanted to prevent a try he should have his hand under all of the ball or rip possession away before the ball has touched the ground.

 

[Rit Hinners]

..... I'd say it's time for law to come into line with practice.

I was with you all the way and then you had to ruin it.

I'd say it's time that practice come into line with Law and I'm talking about much more than this scenario.