chopper15
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sounds about right . .
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chopper15
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Had a week in London to see the Degas and D'Vinci exhibs.
Queued for 2hrs to see the latter. If you're into winsome Madonnas with enigmatic smiles and muscular babies with teenage heads then it's a must-see . . . . I preferred the tu-tu skirted young ladies . . . far more stirring!
Also went to the theatre . . . We will Rock You. Ben Elton's take on Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody. Unmissable!:clap::clap:
Farage's littlest Englander approach is not only irritating, it also presents a grave danger to all of our futures here in the UK. The European project will continue, too many have too much invested to let it fail completely; and for us to shut our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and chant, "lalalala, can't hear you, won't hear you", will not only not prevent it continuing but it will put us permanently on the sidelines of an increasingly united financial power block.
In pure economic terms this country cannot compete with the US, nor the emerging BRIC states - we don't have the population nor the resources - as Europe we can.
Which is why if the Euro does fail, then it will do so by some nations leaving it - with a core of nations left. We have a choice, be part of that core - and play a significant role within it, or be reduced to some sort of faded gentility - Bognor Regis on a national scale, perhaps.
Farage has three main planks which he relies on:
1 - The "we are special" plank. This is the notion that the UK deserves a special place in the world because we are, well, the UK. We have history. We have a proud history of fighting the French and the Germans to maintain and increase our spheres of influence around the world -creating and protecting the Empire. This touches on the patriotism of people and lets him manipulate those feelings to set up a dichotomy of 'us against them'.
2 - This is related, but basically comes down to "two world wars and one world cup". We have suffered terribly to avoid a German dominated Europe and now, so he says, we are going to get one via the back door. Again it plays the patriot card - if you are against German domination (and if not then shame on you!) then you must, by extension, be against the European Union. (Though in many ways the war was against the Nazis, not Germany - but that's a complex issue that is only marginally relevant)
3 - Europe is not sufficiently democratic. The main force for legislation in Europe is the unelected Commission, which comprises appointees from individual Governments. This Commission interferes with our freedoms (eg the right to be told to work all hours for low pay, etc.)
What he conveniently ignores is that:
1 - The days of Empire are dead. Fighting other democracies to extend our unique UK sphere of influence is simply silly
2 - If you want to avoid a Europe dominated by Germany (and France) then we need to have equal status with them in the EU. This means taking an equal part, and pooling sovereignty, not diminishing it. Taking an equal part would mean joining a reformed Euro. The rules for membership of the Currency Zone have been flouted in the past - we see the result of that in Greece, Italy, and Eire. So stricter fiscal rules are required, and must be strictly adhered to and enforced. This will require tighter political integration in order to ensure that proper action can be taken as required. The core nations will do that - and at the moment they simpy see an opportunity to leave us out, and leave us behind.
3 - The tighter political integration in the core states will require a reduction of the current democratic defecit, it is not only the UK tht struggles with this, and reforms are already under discussion. Again, if we are not part of the project the rest won't care what we think. There is a once in a lifetime opportunity to make radical changes to the democratic structures within Europe - to increase the powers of the European Parliament at the expense of the Commission, and to rework the relationships between the member states (or at least those in the core).
All of which means that Farage and the Tory sceptics are the ones who would damage this country's economic future, and provide a poorer future for my grandson - and I for one will not be fooled by rabble rousing, though otherwise empty, rhetoric such as that given in the link at #1
- "sounds about right", my arse!
In pure economic terms this country cannot compete with the US, nor the emerging BRIC states - we don't have the population nor the resources - as Europe we can.
Which is why if the Euro does fail, then it will do so by some nations leaving it - with a core of nations left. We have a choice, be part of that core - and play a significant role within it, or be reduced to some sort of faded gentility - Bognor Regis on a national scale, perhaps.
Farage has three main planks which he relies on:
1 - The "we are special" plank. This is the notion that the UK deserves a special place in the world because we are, well, the UK. We have history. We have a proud history of fighting the French and the Germans to maintain and increase our spheres of influence around the world -creating and protecting the Empire. This touches on the patriotism of people and lets him manipulate those feelings to set up a dichotomy of 'us against them'.
2 - This is related, but basically comes down to "two world wars and one world cup". We have suffered terribly to avoid a German dominated Europe and now, so he says, we are going to get one via the back door. Again it plays the patriot card - if you are against German domination (and if not then shame on you!) then you must, by extension, be against the European Union. (Though in many ways the war was against the Nazis, not Germany - but that's a complex issue that is only marginally relevant)
3 - Europe is not sufficiently democratic. The main force for legislation in Europe is the unelected Commission, which comprises appointees from individual Governments. This Commission interferes with our freedoms (eg the right to be told to work all hours for low pay, etc.)
What he conveniently ignores is that:
1 - The days of Empire are dead. Fighting other democracies to extend our unique UK sphere of influence is simply silly
2 - If you want to avoid a Europe dominated by Germany (and France) then we need to have equal status with them in the EU. This means taking an equal part, and pooling sovereignty, not diminishing it. Taking an equal part would mean joining a reformed Euro. The rules for membership of the Currency Zone have been flouted in the past - we see the result of that in Greece, Italy, and Eire. So stricter fiscal rules are required, and must be strictly adhered to and enforced. This will require tighter political integration in order to ensure that proper action can be taken as required. The core nations will do that - and at the moment they simpy see an opportunity to leave us out, and leave us behind.
3 - The tighter political integration in the core states will require a reduction of the current democratic defecit, it is not only the UK tht struggles with this, and reforms are already under discussion. Again, if we are not part of the project the rest won't care what we think. There is a once in a lifetime opportunity to make radical changes to the democratic structures within Europe - to increase the powers of the European Parliament at the expense of the Commission, and to rework the relationships between the member states (or at least those in the core).
All of which means that Farage and the Tory sceptics are the ones who would damage this country's economic future, and provide a poorer future for my grandson - and I for one will not be fooled by rabble rousing, though otherwise empty, rhetoric such as that given in the link at #1
- "sounds about right", my arse!
chopper15
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WOW, Davet, that was some powerful critique. :clap:
Your persuasive discourse certainly sounds about right to me . . . but do you consider that we and 'they' have the benevolent management nous to see us through?:sad: . . . I think that was the under-lying concern behind his bubble-pricking diatribe which was obviously aimed at a probable gang of self-serving unelected bureaucrats.
Toby Warren
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Whilst I agree with DaveT re Nigel F, he does however a point re the fundamental democracy shortage in the EU.
Which, as I said, we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something about.
The mood in the heart of Europe is heavily in favour of swinging reforms, the establishment of a tightly knit group of core nations, and radical changes to the structure which will address the democratic deficit.
Don't bugger about on the fringes trying to get our ball back before we go home -
Carpe Diem
Not sure what you mean by "benevolent" - but if we can address the issues seriously without people like Farage constantly fighting for political advantage by appealing to the faux patriotic and encouraging a wholly unrealistic sense of what the UK can achieve on its own - enrolling everything from Good Queen Bess to Winnie to create an atmosphere of xenophobic panic - then we may have the skills to negotiate a fair system to our mutual benefit. As any fule kno; win-win is what we need to aim for.
The mood in the heart of Europe is heavily in favour of swinging reforms, the establishment of a tightly knit group of core nations, and radical changes to the structure which will address the democratic deficit.
Don't bugger about on the fringes trying to get our ball back before we go home -
Carpe Diem
Not sure what you mean by "benevolent" - but if we can address the issues seriously without people like Farage constantly fighting for political advantage by appealing to the faux patriotic and encouraging a wholly unrealistic sense of what the UK can achieve on its own - enrolling everything from Good Queen Bess to Winnie to create an atmosphere of xenophobic panic - then we may have the skills to negotiate a fair system to our mutual benefit. As any fule kno; win-win is what we need to aim for.
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chopper15
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Not sure what you mean by "benevolent".
Antonym to 'Greedy', self-serving, Davet. Irristible to people in power.:hap:
In a capitalist society the force that inevitably strangles the 'trickle-down' effect . . . . as Greece will now discover.:sad:
Antonym to 'Greedy', self-serving, Davet. Irristible to people in power.:hap:
In a capitalist society the force that inevitably strangles the 'trickle-down' effect . . . . as Greece will now discover.:sad:
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I think I lost any semblance of belief in a trickle down effect somewhere around 1983.
Reminds me of the theory that centres will pass the ball out to their wingers. Not that I'm bitter. I may have mentioned this before.
b*st*rds.
Centres - bankers... what's the difference? "I've got it, I'm keeping it. I know you gave it to me originally, but it's mine now!"
Reminds me of the theory that centres will pass the ball out to their wingers. Not that I'm bitter. I may have mentioned this before.
b*st*rds.
Centres - bankers... what's the difference? "I've got it, I'm keeping it. I know you gave it to me originally, but it's mine now!"