Sour taste in the mouth.....

[Ovey]

I had a game on saturday (Yellow 2nds v Black 3rds) which made me question why I give up my time to give two teams a game of rugby. I could have been at home doing something nice with my family instead!

All seemed fine pre-match and probably for about 5 minutes into it - then the comments started. Black seemed to have a grievance about yellow coming into rucks "head first" and them being "dangerous". It came through the skipper first, and I agreed to watch out for it. After looking, I didn't see it that way and allowed play to carry on as was.

Then the grumblings started, and the under-the-breath comments. At first I let it slide, then I started to warn, then penalise it, and the worst of it seemed to die down. The two skippers were trying to quosh it by talking to their players and apologising to me, but it still seemed to go on at various times throughout the match.

I then made a mistake of letting a yellow quick tap go, despite a black player distracting me with some inane complaint, which led to a yellow try. I allowed it, then thought about it but it was too late (I apologised the the black skipper later).

The next thing was black FR complaining that yellow FR were standing up in the scrums (there was a height mis-match but there was only one scrum all afternoon where yellow LHP stood up and was pinged for it).

After the match the black coach came up to me to complain about the number of substitutes that yellow had used (more than 5). I stated that as the actual inter-changes were below the 8 allowed, if he had a complaint about the number of substitues used he should go to the league to complain. At that point he turned on his heel and stormed off!

The beauty of it all was that a fellow society ref (who regularly watches the yellows at home) had given me a mic so he could listen to me for mutual benefit, and he stated that he agreed with me in all decisions, and backed up my POV for everything stated above. He told me that I'd handled the game well and should be easily able to cope at a couple of levels higher (in his opinion). The only problem he had with me was that I'd apologised to the skipper for my mistake during the game not after it!

But it has just soured my seasons experience, which had been a really good season up until that point.

 

[Toby Warren]

Chin up Ovey - glad there was another ref to provide some 'comfort'.

Is there anything that you can learn from this? Anything you would handle differently?
Dissent is sadly a blight on the game and does really sour the experience at times.


My approach (works for me but doesn't mean it's 'right' or the only way) Is to deal with dissent very firmly very early.

At the toss it's the only thing I talk to the skippers about (apart from kick / ends!)

If it starts to creep it's normally a word at the FIRST occurrence - please don't appeal/shout/moan/question what ever - I then remind the skipper of the chat we had before the game.

Next occasion it's a PK and then escalate if needed (it rarely is they get the idea quickly!)

Chin up - there's always next week

 

[Ovey]

Thanks Toby.

I have questioned what I maybe could have done better. I think the general point is to police the dissent more decisively. It was a vet who started it (and I've played vets myself so know it's a special skill a certain age group have) but I'll try to quosh it earlier.

And secondly I'll establish that offending players don't distract me when a quick tap is on the cards so that I can watch the tap and let play go, instead of letting it go but from the wrong place because I was distracted!

I always look at a match with a fresh slate, but if I come across these two sides next season I'll be thinking about handling it differently if similar behaviour starts to creep in.

 

[Toby Warren]

That's a good attitude. I always take some comfort from when it all goes horribly wrong that I can learn something - when it is all smooth sailing it's hard to improve on that!

 

[damo]

Toby has made some good points. One thing I would add is that I would be very reluctant to ever apologise to a captain for awarding a try against them. Particularly in this case where it seems to me that you had nothing whatsoever to apologise for!

The ball does not really go dead at a PK. It is kind of in a zombie state where the game is temporarily paused, but can start up again at any time the non-offending team take the step of starting it up. If YOU initiate a conversation with a player after a PK to explain a complicated decision or to give a warning then you might want to hold up play, but if a player comes to you and tries to argue the toss at you, there is no reason why you should stop a quick tap for them.

As soon as you apologise for something like that then you will make the captain feel aggrieved, and you are just inviting more trouble. Very occasionally you might want to say something along the lines of "sorry mate I didn't see any knock on because players were in the way and I am not going to guess - if there was a knock then I cocked up" but you shouldn't make a habit of it.

 

[Ovey]

Unfortunately the QT was taken a few feet away from where the offense was committed, but because I was being distracted I didn't notice. That's the crux of it. It was only after I'd awarded the try that I realised.

But I think I'll leave apologies for the bar afterwards in future!

 

[damo]

Unfortunately the QT was taken a few feet away from where the offense was committed, but because I was being distracted I didn't notice. That's the crux of it. It was only after I'd awarded the try that I realised.

But I think I'll leave apologies for the bar afterwards in future!

If even then.

 

[Dickie E]

Unfortunately the QT was taken a few feet away from where the offense was committed, but because I was being distracted I didn't notice. That's the crux of it. It was only after I'd awarded the try that I realised.

But I think I'll leave apologies for the bar afterwards in future!

I've re-read your OP but I'm not clear what is was that you didn't notice. Is it that you didn't see the QT being taken?

If so, I wouldn't apologise for that. Do you think something about the QT was wrong?

 

[Ovey]

I'm afraid so Dickie. Having been distracted by the offending teams player, I saw the kicker go out of the corner of my eye and turned to follow him as he covered the remaining 8m or so to cross the try-line. The defenders offered no resistance and were still retreating.

With hindsight I didn't see the kick clearly and it was from a few feet infield from where the offense occurred. I "went with the flow" rather than bringing them back and re-taking it, which I know was an error on my part.

 

[SimonSmith]

The advice is broadly right: If you apologize for awarding the try, you really have two options:
1. Don't apologize if you've done nothing wrong.
2. If you have done something wrong, don't award it in the first place.

I also wouldn't sweat a couple of feet one way or another on a quick tap.

 

[Dickie E]

Ultimately if you want to avoid a sour taste in your mouth ask your partner to stay off the citrus drinks the night before

(a little bit of light relief)

 

[Simon Thomas]

Sounds like Black players need to sort themselves out ! As for the Black Coach, he comes over as "somewhat lacking".

You give a good honest self-analysis, perhaps over-critical, and I have no issues with anything, except the fact you even bothered listening to the Black player at a PK offence !

Perhaps you can increase the overt & proactive nature and intensity of your FR management - zero tolerance. At the "crouch" get the heights and square position right, "bind" tells you if the distance is right (and make them bind long & high !) - at "set" make sure they stay static. Any non-compliances and penalise them early. Never leave them to manage themselves ;-)

You have done well this season and shame this match soured it a bit. If you want to discuss it call me or any of the Committee.

 

[Phil E]

Ovey

I would have had no problem in awarding the try go from your description.
The fact that it was a couple of feet infield from the place of the offence was immaterial.
The key point in your description was this:

I saw the kicker go out of the corner of my eye and turned to follow him as he covered the remaining 8m or so to cross the try-line. The defenders offered no resistance and were still retreating.

Guess who is responsible for the try? Black for turning their backs on the PK and/or not retreating fast enough. I would suggest they are fully aware of this and annoyed with themselves, but its always easier to blame someone else than to admit your own faults.

This is one of those games we all have, and have to learn to deal with. Thankfully they don't happen too often. Learn what you can from it (stamp on the chatter firmly and quickly) and then forget it.

I always said if I had three games in a row that I didn't enjoy, I would give up. It's never happened. I could count on one hand the number of games that haven't worked out and left me questioning my reasons to referee. Maybe three out of hundreds of games.

Its almost inevitable that next week will be a great game and you will wonder what all the fuss was about :wink:

 

[FlipFlop]

...

Then the grumblings started, and the under-the-breath comments. At first I let it slide, then I started to warn, then penalise it, and the worst of it seemed to die down. The two skippers were trying to quosh it by talking to their players and apologising to me, but it still seemed to go on at various times throughout the match.

Why let it slide? You've had good empathy with the captains, they are trying to help you, but are not being effective. So you manage it. Never let is slide - it is harder to get it back. And as for the worst of it - quash it all.

I then made a mistake of letting a yellow quick tap go, despite a black player distracting me with some inane complaint,

I make the point pre-match that at a PK the offending team has to get back 10m. I will not discuss anything to anyone from the offedning team who is standing less than 10m away. I will not discuss with anyone other than the Captain either. So why let a black player try to slow it all down, get in your face, distract you? Send them 10m away and ignore them.

(I apologised the the black skipper later).

What for? What did you do wrong? They were the ones not getting back 10m.

The next thing was black FR complaining that yellow FR were standing up in the scrums (there was a height mis-match but there was only one scrum all afternoon where yellow LHP stood up and was pinged for it).

By this point you've let the players complain about everything all day (or so they think), so they just keep chirping away at you.

It seems to me reading your report - your day was soured because you let the players nag away at you. You started right - by the empathy with the captains, but then let the players get away with whinging. Tell the captains they need to act to stop it, and if they can't penalise it, and if it continues, go to the pocket. It will stop.

If you move up the levels, the players will very quickly work out if they can chirp away at you (get doubt in your mind, slow down oppo PKs etc) or if they need to STFU and play. I would suggest that 99.99% of games where the players STFU and play are of a higher quality, and more enjoyable for all concerned.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

A very useful piece of coaching I received a couple of years ago was that, on awarding a penalty, your first conscious priorities (assuming whistle, signal etc. is all sub-conscious) are (a) spot the ball, then (b) polic the players immediately around it and then (c) establish the mark for your own benefit as well as that of the players (which can be done by pointing at it if out of immediate reach). These 3 steps can happen in the blink of an eye, and (b) may not be necessary at all if the SH already has the ball in his hand and is scampering towards you, but with this checklist it much reduces the chance of a QT being taken in a way which has the potential to embarrass you.

In my PMB, I inform captains that (a) they should not look to initiate any discussionat a time when I have just awarded a penalty against them as I will not slow up the non-offending team and (b) no other player should look to initiate a discussion at any time. Through this I set a context in which I can ignore the protestations of the offending team or any attempt to distract me and instead focus on the above checklist.

I have found the combination of the two extremely helpful!!

 

[lawsons]

Lots of good points here which should help you progress. There isn't a referee here either who hasn't had a similar game at some point, it's all part of the development process.

From my perspective I'd just say:

1. If you desire to be friendly or a 'one of them' to the players, it will always backfire. You first and foremost need to be the referee.
2. Identify the commentators early. These are the ones that point out the not straight scrum from number 8 or outside centre. Tell them early your not interested in their commentary and ping them if they don't stop. Commentators cause trouble because you may give a decision moments afterwards (which you were going to anyway) that agrees withe the commentator and the players think you listened to him and therefore start to add their comments.
3. Never apologise or acknowledge an error. The most would be 'I'll have a think about it and let you know in the bar'. When I have acknowledged mistakes, often afterwards on thinking about it, I realise I was actually correct or not as wrong as I thought.
4. It is much harder to regain control of a game than to keep control. Be firm from the start on backchat/commentary and it won't progress. Captains can be the worst " but I'm the captain".
5. Don't stop and listen. Just run off and reposition yourself if you don't want to get involved. Once you give them time, others will get encouraged.

Good luck and remember, you'll be a better ref next week because of this game, so actually you should be thankful for it (in hindsight!)

 

[dave_clark]

3. Never apologise or acknowledge an error.

doesn't that go against most of the other advice on this subject?

edit - which generally goes along the lines of apologise, but don't try to even things up?

 

[damo]

doesn't that go against most of the other advice on this subject?

edit - which generally goes along the lines of apologise, but don't try to even things up?

Is that the general advice? It wouldn't be my advice, so I am interested in hearing views on it.

The only apology I might give would be a sort of non-apology if I suspect I may have been unsighted on something - "if I missed a knock-on then sorry but I can't call it if I don't see it". I wouldn't give the sort of apology that acknowledges I did something wrong.

More to the point though, I tend to avoid getting into those sorts of conversations in the first place.

 

[Dixie]

3. Never apologise or acknowledge an error. The most would be 'I'll have a think about it and let you know in the bar'. When I have acknowledged mistakes, often afterwards on thinking about it, I realise I was actually correct or not as wrong as I thought.

I think this is an overstatement. Red FK just outside the 22. Ball kicked straight into touch on the Blue 10m line. TJ sticks up his flag on oppo 10m line, arm out to Red team. You arrive and make your mark on the 5m line, saying Red throw. Blue captain politely confirms that the kick was a FK, and asks whether it ought really to be a Blue throw just outside the Red 22. Your options are:

a) Sorry guys - my bad. Blue throw-in 23 out from Red line; or
b) Don't question my authority - I've made my decision and that's what we're going with, because I'm correct here.

b) is a sure way to lose the players' respect. a) can easily be sold, and IMO players respect a ref who's prepared to admit to a brain fart. I'd agree Lawsons's approach if you have a difference of opinion and genuinely don't know the answer, but where you know you have just made an indefensible decision, far better in my view to 'fess up and get the game back to where it should be.

In my early days, I was at Redingensians where there was a lot of frantic activity in-goal, followed by a defender under pressure kicking the ball over the TIG line. My brain was scrambled - I had no idea how to restart. I elected for an attacking throw on the 5m line. Home coach was outraged - commented that I didn't know the laws - which was fair comment. But we went with my decision rather than substituting his preferred one (the correct one), because I could not validate its accuracy at the time.

 

[Stuartg]

Going back to the OP - if some gobby black player distracts you and the result is a yellow try then he needs to think about the consequences of his loquacity.