Tackle or not a tackle?

[Lex Hipkins]

Confused myself on this in a (junior - relevant?) match today

Red ball carrier runs into contact with blue player .... blue grabs red around upper body and then goes for the ball with one arm but perhaps not both (relevant again?) ... brief jostle for ball

Red then drops to ground with the ball and blue simultaneously now has hold of ball with both hands

As soon as red goes to ground holding on to ball above him that blue on his feet is holding on to also ...has a tackle taken place?

ie does

a. the tackler in blue (tackle assist by definition of not having gone to ground?) need to release the red player and ball (before having option to go for the ball again)

.. or b. does the red player now on the ground simply have to release the ball to the player on his feet

just to clarify no other player from either team were involved

In speed of moment I went for option b and called player on ground to release it ....but now have niggling doubt :chin:

 

[Ian_Cook]

Confused myself on this in a (junior - relevant?) match today

Red ball carrier runs into contact with blue player .... blue grabs red around upper body and then goes for the ball with one arm but perhaps not both (relevant again?) ... brief jostle for ball

Red then drops to ground with the ball and blue simultaneously now has hold of ball with both hands

As soon as red goes to ground holding on to ball above him that blue on his feet is holding on to also ...has a tackle taken place?

ie does

a. the tackler in blue (tackle assist by definition of not having gone to ground?) need to release the red player and ball (before having option to go for the ball again)

.. or b. does the red player now on the ground simply have to release the ball to the player on his feet

just to clarify no other player from either team were involved

In speed of moment I went for option b and called player on ground to release it ....but now have niggling doubt :chin:

Its a tackle, but IMO, this is one area of the Law that needs looking at.

If a player is trying to rip the ball off the ball carrier, why should be ball carrier be able to take himself to ground to effectively play a "get out of jail free" card in order to prevent his opponent from continuing to try to rip the ball.

 

[crossref]

Yes indeed
In this scenario the man on the ground is king

 

[smeagol]

Agree with the above. In a game which I reffed for the local club, this happened, and I pinged the tackler for not releasing.

Where this gets fishy is where the smart tackler releases, then the carrier gets back on his feet.

PING! Carrier holding on

Carrier/teammates: where was the tackle, sir?

Ref: when you went to ground, back 10!

Despite being the right call to make, howling would ensue.

 

[crossref]

Agree with the above. In a game which I reffed for the local club, this happened, and I pinged the tackler for not releasing.

Where this gets fishy is where the smart tackler releases, then the carrier gets back on his feet.

PING! Carrier holding on

Carrier/teammates: where was the tackle, sir?

Ref: when you went to ground, back 10!

Despite being the right call to make, howling would ensue.

Indeed 'not held' add the touchline pundits

 

[Womble]

OP is a tackle without a tackler! so yes he must release before going for the ball, simples....

 

[Guyseep]

The tricky part is that if a maul formed, and then the ball carrier goes to ground, the complete opposite occurs. Now the Blue player does not have to release because it is still a maul. And if the red player can't make the ball available immediately it is either a scrum turnover(blue feed) or a penalty against red for collapsing maul.

 

[Womble]

Ball carrier can't collapse a maul!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ball carrier can't collapse a maul!

Law reference?

 

[Womble]

42 years experience but willing to learn! Common sense would dictate that a ball carrier can't pull a maul down!!

 

[andyscott]

42 years experience but willing to learn! Common sense would dictate that a ball carrier can't pull a maul down!!

You must have started late!!!

 

[OB..]

42 years experience but willing to learn! Common sense would dictate that a ball carrier can't pull a maul down!!

My common sense comes out with the opposite view.

Ball carrier is trying to go to ground, opponents are trying to hold him up (well known Ireland tactic). If the ball carrier succeeds and the opponents fall on top of him, who collapsed the maul?

 

[Lex Hipkins]

Before the tackle question becomes a maul question .. I want to run another scenario by you where still just two players ... so no maul

I specifically said in my original description that at some point the blue player (or tackler) had hold of the red ball carrier before he went to ground

... but what if the blue player grabs hold of the ball and tries to pull it free without ever having hold of the red players body

when the red player goes to ground is blue still a tackler ..can you be a tackler if you have never actually had hold of the player .. only the ball?

 

[Dixie]

Common sense would dictate that a ball carrier can't pull a maul down!!

The trouble with common sense is that it commonly means different things to different people.

A ball carrier in a maul is the only mauler entitled to go to ground, but that doesn't mean that he is also the only person entitled to pull the entire house of cards down around him. Collapsing a maul is a safety issue, so to me, common sense says that the laws won't give one player and one player alone the right to act dangerously. It seems to me that if the ball carrier can go safely to ground in a maul, he gets the benefit of 17.2(d). But if he collapses it in so doing, he's just as guilty of dangerous play as any other mauler would be - 17.2(e). You might argue that it's not intentional; to me, that's a bit like the terrorist arguing that he's not guilty of murder because, while he fully intended to blow the airliner out of the sky to make a political point, he meant no harm to any of the passengers who happened to be on the plane, and did not intend to kill them.

 

[Womble]

My common sense comes out with the opposite view.

Ball carrier is trying to go to ground, opponents are trying to hold him up (well known Ireland tactic). If the ball carrier succeeds and the opponents fall on top of him, who collapsed the maul?

collapse comes under foul play so I fail to see how the ball carrier going to ground comes under that law!

 

[OB..]

Before the tackle question becomes a maul question .. I want to run another scenario by you where still just two players ... so no maul

I specifically said in my original description that at some point the blue player (or tackler) had hold of the red ball carrier before he went to ground

... but what if the blue player grabs hold of the ball and tries to pull it free without ever having hold of the red players body

when the red player goes to ground is blue still a tackler ..can you be a tackler if you have never actually had hold of the player .. only the ball?

You are arguing that it is not a tackle because the player has not been held. I would say that it is virtually impossible to hold the ball without also in some sense holding the player - after all he is holding the ball as well. No need to go there.

 

[Womble]

many years ago the IRB ruled that you could be "held" by a bootlace so I'm with OB. Don't go there!

 

[Dixie]

... but what if the blue player grabs hold of the ball and tries to pull it free without ever having hold of the red players body

when the red player goes to ground is blue still a tackler ..can you be a tackler if you have never actually had hold of the player .. only the ball?

Good question. Original ball carrier becomes a joint ball carrier, and then one of them goes to ground (pulling the ball and the other co-carrier with him).

It would be really hard to come up with the right answer in the half-second available to you on the pitch, but to me this sounds like both players are caught by law 14 - players on the ground, no tackle. They then have to release, pass or place back immediately, before rolling away. Probably, neither will release first to give the other the chance to pass or place, so quick whistle, ball unplayable, Red (orignal ball carrier) moving forward.

 

[OB..]

Good question. Original ball carrier becomes a joint ball carrier, and then one of them goes to ground (pulling the ball and the other co-carrier with him).

It would be really hard to come up with the right answer in the half-second available to you on the pitch, but to me this sounds like both players are caught by law 14 - players on the ground, no tackle. They then have to release, pass or place back immediately, before rolling away. Probably, neither will release first to give the other the chance to pass or place, so quick whistle, ball unplayable, Red (orignal ball carrier) moving forward.

I think the point was that the Blue player stayed on his feet.

 

[Guyseep]

Ball carrier can't collapse a maul!

I refer you to this law clarification

http://www.irblaws.com/EN/clarificationdetail/year/2011/83