[Tackle] Tackled player holding ball up to allow a quick pass.

[tewdric]

I coach youngsters as well as being a newbie WRU level one ref and went to a coaching talk by one of the Welsh region's skills coaches recently.

One of things he was looking to advocate was getting a tackled player to hold the ball up to enable the scrum half to get a quicker pass away in fast moving phases.

Does the panel think this is legal?

 

[crossref]

It's not legal .. tackled player must release the ball

But if there is no opponent competing for the ball then many referees will turn a blind eye to it .

If you are coaching that you also need to coach them to pay attention to the ref and quit doing it if you are pinged

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Agree with Crossref. Tackled player must act immediately. If it is not material, that is one thing but don't take the piss.

 

[crossref]

As a ref, as soon as I realised it had been coached , probably when I have seen it twice .. I would have to at least talk to the capt about it . Perhaps tell them to quit immediately.

The problem is : if they are doing it a lot, before long it will be material and you will ping it. You don't want that to seem like a gotcha.

So warn them in advance or, more simply, Tel them to quit it

 

[Flish]

I would prefer them to pop it than hold it up, the act of popping means they actively know when the receiver is there to receive the ball, and in contrast it’s easier to release if no receiver and / or them holding it becomes material. In reality there can be a very fine line between a pop and handing the receiver the ball if done in one movement, but i’d expect it to look more ‘ok’ to the ref - if that makes sense

 

[Dickie E]

In the real world where it is unlikely that the ball will be held up for more than a second or two, I'd be OK with it. Beware though, ball will also be easier to jackle.

 

[didds]

This stuff really pumps my 'nads. It's "clever" stuff that really shouldn't be/isn't required by young players - IMO.

Maybe WHEN they have all the requisite in- and post- contact skills in place MAYBE then add to it.

[ eg isolating defenders, good footwork, body position, go forward, placement/presentation, LAW UNDERSTANDING etc ]

I'm disappointed that junior coaches are being instructed in this stuff by senior coaching staff in an official capacity - though of course said senior coach may have made those/my caveats clear also .

didds

 

[didds]

Agree with Crossref. Tackled player must act immediately. If it is not material, that is one thing but don't take the piss.

just putting this out there... it is surely always material... in that it provides a (albeit minimal!) time benefit to the attacking team as the (acting) s/half gains a scrap of time from not having to bend fully and pass from the floor. So the attackers always gain by such an action.

didds

 

[Camquin]

By "attackers" or "attacking team", I assume you mean "team in possession" who may technically be defending.

 

[didds]

same old nuance. yes - team in possession.

didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

just putting this out there... it is surely always material... in that it provides a (albeit minimal!) time benefit to the attacking team as the (acting) s/half gains a scrap of time from not having to bend fully and pass from the floor. So the attackers always gain by such an action.

didds

You could argue that there is no offence that has no material effect on play, however small / insignificant that may be. it is, however, an accepted concept. and it is for the referee to make the judgement as to what is significant or not in each scenario.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

In the real world where it is unlikely that the ball will be held up for more than a second or two, I'd be OK with it. Beware though, ball will also be easier to jackle.

Fair point

 

[Marc Wakeham]

As a ref, as soon as I realised it had been coached , probably when I have seen it twice .. I would have to at least talk to the capt about it . Perhaps tell them to quit immediately.

The problem is : if they are doing it a lot, before long it will be material and you will ping it. You don't want that to seem like a gotcha.

So warn them in advance or, more simply, Tel them to quit it

If you manage it properly it will not be a gotcha.

If you judge it not material, allow it but tell the player that you played on this time as it was not (in your mind) material but that next time your call may not be the same.

"ME" is not an excuse to do nothing. it is a management tool and that requires action even if that is just a warning as to future possibilities.

 

[tewdric]

To put this in context it was a talk attended by coaches at all levels of the club game across the region and an example of what the coaching staff are doing to innovate and gain an advantage. It certainly wasnt advocated as something that youngsters should be taught (although we all know that keen youngsters immitate what they see in top level matches!) My view of the world is that minis and juniors learn to do the basic bread and butter things well in a safe and fun environment.

 

[Rich_NL]

just putting this out there... it is surely always material... in that it provides a (albeit minimal!) time benefit to the attacking team as the (acting) s/half gains a scrap of time from not having to bend fully and pass from the floor. So the attackers always gain by such an action.

didds

Not if the defence is already set, surely?

I see it a bit like the "extra roll after tackling" - sometimes coached, so give a warning the first C&O time and then ping if it becomes clear it's a tactic.

 

[didds]

Not if the defence is already set, surely?

slightly less time for the set defense to come and apply pressure?

I appreciate we are talking very very small amounts of time

I guess its that thing about oif there was no advantage from doing it why would they6 do it in the first place?

I'm playing devils advocate here really - I can see refs will play materiality. I was dangling the debate about if its ever not material.

didds

 

[Flish]

Materiality probably depends on the age of these juniors too, bottom end not many contests at the ruck are structured, let alone successful in terms of turn over, but at the upper ages any time advantage will be. Still, I'm all for positive play that gets the ball moving

 

[tewdric]

This was the skills coach for one of the welsh region Pro 14 teams!

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Fair enough, "Not Newport" need all the help they can get.

@diddragonslose

 

[tewdric]

Now where did I mention which region?

Anyway hold that thought for Saturday!