Tackler in touch-in-goal

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Ian

Can a player be "brought to the ground" in the in goal? That is no tackle laws just brought to the ground.

 

[David J.]

Is it the same scenario as a maul?

If the whole maul are bound together and the ball is in the middle, you wouldn't call touch if a player on the edge of the maul put a foot in touch ?

What if the ball carrier in the maul stepped on another opponent's foot that was in touch?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian

Can a player be "brought to the ground" in the in goal? That is no tackle laws just brought to the ground.

Yes he can physically be brought to ground, but not in any legal sense under the Laws. The Law regarding a player in possession lying on top of a player on the ground being defined as "brought to ground" ONLY applies within the confines of Law 15 which can only apply in the Field of Play. Since In-Goal is not part of the Field of play (Law 1), a player in possession lying on top of another player on the ground In-Goal is not 'brought to ground" in a legal sense.

NKW, the reason for Law 15 allowing this "brought to ground" exception in Law 15 is because without it, play would be undefined. Here are some of the consequences if that exception were not defined:

► A maul could not form because the player holding the ball is not on his feet.

► A ruck could not form because the player on top of the other player is not on the ground, therefor a tackle would not have taken place.

► A tackle hasn't taken place therefore the player who dropped him would not have to release him.

► A tackle hasn't taken place therefore the player on top of the player on the ground would not have to release the ball.

► No-one would have to go through the gate.

If you look at these five things. you'll realise they they ALL apply in-goal

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Ian,
Yep, you have proven to me that these things cannot take place in in-goal.

We do use 15.3 outside of the tackle law, don't we? A player going to ground in a maul, players on the ground must move away from the ball in a ruck and must not interfere, or 14.4 a player on the ground must do these three things immediately. None of which occur in in-goal. Isn't 15.3 how we determine if a player is on the ground? One knee or on top of another player.

You have proven your point that I shouldn't use Law 15 in regard to touch in goal, but it is my basis to determine if a player in on the ground, isn't it?


Everyone -( my last gasp) why doesn't 22.11 (a) apply to the original question by DavidJ?

22.11 (a) When the ball touches the touch in goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines the ball becomes dead.....

Isn't the ball carrier an anyone.

22.11a does not have ....'when it is not being carried by a player and it touches'.... but the definitions of touch does contain that clarification.

With this omission, does 22.11(a) apply to both a rolling ball and a carried ball?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Everyone -( my last gasp) why doesn't 22.11 (a) apply to the original question by DavidJ?

22.11 (a) When the ball touches the touch in goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines the ball becomes dead.....

Firstly, David J has not specified that the ball touched Gold 13. White 11 had the ball, and his touching Gold 13, who was in touch, does not put White 11, and therefore the ball in touch.

The ball touching "anything or anyone" refers to spectators, advertising holdings, the TJ/AR, and perhaps a player etc, off which the ball might bounce back off without actually being grounded in touch. If you look at the full text of the relevant parts of Law 22.11

22.11 BALL DEAD IN IN-GOAL
(a) When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by the attacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was played into in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking
team throws in the ball.

(b) When a player carrying the ball touches the touch-in-goal line, the dead ball line, or touches the ground beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was carried into in-goal by the attacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was carried into in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the
attacking team throws in the ball

Clause (a) ONLY refers to the ball; a ball on its own, not being carried by any player. "anyone or anything" includes the ground.

Clause (b) ONLY refers to the player carrying the ball.

Note that the bits in blue and red are the differences in the wording. Try reading just the blue words and then read just the red words.

And just for interests sake, here are a couple of scenarios for you to ponder:

Preamble Red 14 (attacker) and Blue 15 (defender) are in a sprint race down the right touch for the ball which, having been kicked through by Red 13, is heading for Blue's In-goal. Blue 15 is holding his line just inside the touchline, and Red 14 is outside him, running in touch.

1. The ball is bouncing end-over-end in goal. Red 14 gets to it first and dives at the ball. His feet are still in grounded in touch and he gathers the ball a moment before it hit hits the ground, and grounds the ball. Result - no try 22m dropout to Blue.

2. The ball is rolling along on its side in goal. Red 14 gets to it first and dives at the ball. His feet are still in grounded in touch but he grounds the ball. Result - Try scored.

 

[Dickie E]

Wrong argument Dickie

If you think the ball is in touch in David J's scenario, then you would have to argue also that a player running down the right touch with the ball in his right hand would put the ball into touch if he carried it in such a way that the ball broke the plane of the touchline, even if no part of is body ever touched the touchline or the ground outside it.

IMO, in David J's scenario, the requirements for touch in the Definitions of Law 19 have not been met. Try to White 11

Don't understand what you mean by "wrong argument". Is the restart a scrum or lineout?

 

[Dickie E]

In the try-scoring situation given, the player is undoubtedly "off his feet" as he is not supporting his own weight. However, he is not in touch and if he places the ball immediately (in in-goal) then a try should be awarded.

Jacko, you may well be right but why would he have to place the ball immediately? If he's not in TiG then he can take his time, surely.

 

[Dickie E]

No, as you well know Dickie, it is a line-out to red.

Ball is out of the playing enclosure, they had gone 5m, and even if not released to ground is now dead, and certainly is if it is dropped forward & hits the ground.

In the try scoring scenario, the ball will be grounded quickly.

What happens if a Red player on his feet takes the ball out of the Blue player's hands. Is the throw now to Blue as the Red player was the first ball-carrier to touch the ground in touch?

"In the try scoring scenario, the ball will be grounded quickly.". Why does quickness come into the discussion?

 

[Simon Thomas]

How long is the piece of string ? Good question Dickie.

If red took ball out of hands as they were crossing the touch line, perhaps.

If he is the 5m in touch, then I suspect 99.9% referees would award the throw to blue - correctly in my opinion.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Ian,

Following 22.11 (a) and (b)

Can a ballcarrier, both feet in goal, contact with the ball anything or anyone beyond the touch in goal line and not be in touch in goal?

That is both hands on the ball, perhaps pushing off with the held ball only to help remain in goal. I think (a) applies here and he cannot.

 

[PaulDG]

Ian,

Following 22.11 (a) and (b)

Can a ballcarrier, both feet in goal, contact with the ball anything or anyone beyond the touch in goal line and not be in touch in goal?

Normal Laws of Touch apply.

In other words, he can touch a player who is beyond any line and he can also touch the flag on the goal line.

Anything else is Touch.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

PaulDG,

My scenario may be poorly worded. Only the actual ball makes contact with anything or anyone outside while it is being carried. Clearer I hope.


Boys, I must thank for answering my questions. This has been very informative to me. It may seem like I am antagonizing, but I trying to figure this out.

It has been proven to me not to apply tackle laws to the in goal, the in goal has become a completely seperate entity in my head. In fact, I now consider the touchline and the touch in goal line as completely different and different laws apply to each. The "touch in goal line" only appears in law 19 in two paragraphs of definitions. Outside of those, does law 19 apply to TIG?

Am I correct that all applications I can make in regard to TIG are those two paragraphs, 22.5(b), 22.11(a) (b)? Maybe a new para in 2009. & 10.2c

 

[David J.]

One more possibility...everything else is the same, but:

As Gold is in the process of putting it down, he loses control, backwards (no knock), and it bounces off White's hip before touching the ground in-goal where Gold touches it down.

 

[PaulDG]

One more possibility...everything else is the same, but:

As Gold is in the process of putting it down, he loses control, backwards (no knock), and it bounces off White's hip before touching the ground in-goal where Gold touches it down.

How did the ball get into in-goal?

Attackers put it in - 22 drop out; defenders - 5m scrum.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

[QUOTE David J.]One more possibility...everything else is the same, but:

As Gold is in the process of putting it down, he loses control, backwards (no knock), and it bounces off White's hip before touching the ground in-goal where Gold touches it down.


David, I guess you know my answer. Gold is already in touch in goal. I do not think he is a ballcarrier any longer when is lying on top of another player holding the ball. At that instant the ball is touching an anyone beyond the touch in goal line. 5m attacking, brought in by white

Carrying not defined in law - means to me "on feet, ball in hands, moving from one place to another" so 22.11 (a) I've been wrong many times in this thread.