Tackler in touch-in-goal

[David J.]

White on the attack inside Gold 22. Ball makes it out to the White 11 who hies for the goal line. Gold 13 charges across and wraps up White 11, they go over the goal line, hitting the flag. Gold lands on his back with his shoulders well over the touch-in-goal line. He has wrapped up White who is lying with his back on Gold's chest. White is able to maneuver the ball to touch it down.

Does it matter if no part of White is touching the ground in TiG? Does it matter if the ball has crossed the plane of TiG?

What are the other factors in deciding to award the try?

 

[Ian_Cook]

White on the attack inside Gold 22. Ball makes it out to the White 11 who hies for the goal line. Gold 13 charges across and wraps up White 11, they go over the goal line, hitting the flag. Gold lands on his back with his shoulders well over the touch-in-goal line. He has wrapped up White who is lying with his back on Gold's chest. White is able to maneuver the ball to touch it down.

Does it matter if no part of White is touching the ground in TiG? Does it matter if the ball has crossed the plane of TiG?

What are the other factors in deciding to award the try?

Sorry if this seems overly long, but the touch/in goal Laws can be a bit tricky

The relevant parts of LAW 19 DEFINITIONS:

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the
touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The ball is in touch when a player is carrying it and the ball carrier (or the ball) touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. The place where the ball carrier (or the ball) touched or crossed the touchline is where it went into touch.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.
If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal.

Such a player may knock the ball into the playing area. If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

and the corner flag law

22.12 BALL OR PLAYER TOUCHING A FLAG OR FLAG (CORNER) POST
If the ball or a player carrying the ball touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touchin-goal lines and the dead ball lines without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal the ball is not out of play unless it is first grounded against a flag post.

SO:

1. Touching the corner flag is no longer in-touch so this bit is irrelevant.

2. If the ball is in a player's possession, then the ball crossing the plane of touch is irrelevant.

3. If no part of White 11 is touching the ground outside TiG, then the ball is not in touch. (A player in field touching a player in touch does not put the ball in touch)

The cornerstone of Law 19 is that a ball is generally only held to be in touch if;

1. it is grounded on or over the touch line, or
2. a player in possession of the ball grounds some part of his body on or over the touchline,

The only time when the ball crossing the plane of touch can be held to be in touch is when it is kicked. A ball that is kicked and crosses the plane, and then is knocked back in by a player who is in touch, is held to be in touch at the point where it crosses the plane.

NOTE: At one time, if a ball that was kicked crossed the plane of touch and then came back in by itself, was held to be in touch at the point where it crossed the plane, I think it was pulled because I cannot find it now. OB will likely know when it was pulled.

IMO the scenario you describe is a try to White 11.

 

[Dickie E]

Hmmm.

A Blue ball carrier is tackled into touch by a Red opponent. The Red opponent ends up under the Blue ball carrier such that they slide 5 metres into touch but the Blue player hasn't made contact with the ground. Blue player drops ball forward.

Restart is scrum to Red for knock on?

 

[Simon Thomas]

No, as you well know Dickie, it is a line-out to red.

Ball is out of the playing enclosure, they had gone 5m, and even if not released to ground is now dead, and certainly is if it is dropped forward & hits the ground.

In the try scoring scenario, the ball will be grounded quickly.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Hmmm.

A Blue ball carrier is tackled into touch by a Red opponent. The Red opponent ends up under the Blue ball carrier such that they slide 5 metres into touch but the Blue player hasn't made contact with the ground. Blue player drops ball forward.

Restart is scrum to Red for knock on?

Wrong argument Dickie

If you think the ball is in touch in David J's scenario, then you would have to argue also that a player running down the right touch with the ball in his right hand would put the ball into touch if he carried it in such a way that the ball broke the plane of the touchline, even if no part of is body ever touched the touchline or the ground outside it.

IMO, in David J's scenario, the requirements for touch in the Definitions of Law 19 have not been met. Try to White 11

 

[Dixie]

Counter-intuitive, but I agree with Ian. The White ball carrier has not touched the line or the ground beyond the line, so is in the air beyond the line of touch - the same as if he were diving. If he grounds the ball in-goal without touching the ground, he scores!

 

[OB..]

NOTE: At one time, if a ball that was kicked crossed the plane of touch and then came back in by itself, was held to be in touch at the point where it crossed the plane

That was the case from 1885 to 1978.

 

[Ian_Cook]

That was the case from 1885 to 1978.

Thanks OB, I was sure you would know

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

My initial thought was "touch in goal".

I may have fallen victim to a rugby myth that a player on the ground is considered "ground". In this case the gold tackler is "ground" and the white ball carrier is "in touch" as soon as gold's back crosses the touch line.

My only evidence is from Law 15. 15.3 (b) If a ball carrier is sitting on the ground, or on top of another player on the ground the ball carrier has been "brought to ground".

Doesn't this meet the touch requirement of "ball carrier touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline"?

In David J's case, under my thinking, dotting the ball in goal happens after touch, no try.

 

[Jacko]

I may have fallen victim to a rugby myth that a player on the ground is considered "ground". In this case the gold tackler is "ground" and the white ball carrier is "in touch" as soon as gold's back crosses the touch line.

Easy mistake to make. The situation that has confused you is the ruling that a player supporting his weight on a player on the ground is to be considered "off his feet" and therefore liable to penalty. In the try-scoring situation given, the player is undoubtedly "off his feet" as he is not supporting his own weight. However, he is not in touch and if he places the ball immediately (in in-goal) then a try should be awarded.

As a side note - almost impossible to rule this convincingly without a TMO. Would look horrible. Unless I was in a perfect position and this was obviously what had happened I would go with a 5m attacking scrum as a much more credible call, citing doubt over grounding.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Jacko - I can see why you made Panel !

I agree that, without a TMO, it would very difficult to call a successful grounding with bodies & arms all over the place, unless you were right on the spot with a clear view.

 

[Jacko]

Or a well positioned TJ who you could dump the blame on...

 

[TheBFG]

Or a well positioned TJ who you could dump the blame on...

knew there was a reason not to go down that route!:wink:

 

[Jacko]

I would cite the weather when I TJed at Kendal last Saturday as reason enough to avoid it! Three seasons in 80 minutes. No prize for guessing that summer was the one we missed. Utterly soaked.

 

[Dixie]

My only evidence is from Law 15. 15.3 (b) If a ball carrier is sitting on the ground, or on top of another player on the ground the ball carrier has been "brought to ground".

This seems to me to be a very good point. If, in the field of play, a ball carrier on top of another player is deemed to have been brought to ground, why is this not also the case in touch? Great spot, NKW - but that's not to say you are right . I just can't for the moment figure out why you are wrong.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Can a ball carrier running inside the touchline, ball held well within the field of play, step with one foot on a player on the ground who is in touch, and then continue with remaining steps on the FOP? Aside from trampling, is he in touch?

As far as TOUCH is concerned, this what happened in David J's original question only he was tackled and on his back.

Methinks I are correct, he be in touch no try.

However-if the ball was not carried (that is, it is left in the tryzone before touch and untouched by either player) after the tackle. The players in touch could dot it down for the try or the touchdown. But that didn't happen in our hypothetical.

 

[David J.]

To clarify the scenario:

Let's say it's clear White touched it down. It wasn't instant, but if the TiG wasn't an issue, the try would be awarded.

Without the TMO it'd be tough to say definitively that White went into TiG before being brought to the ground by Gold (so, if you don't see it, you can't call it).

The cases that NKW and Dickie raise are interesting.

As a side note, I moved this thread from the general forums for a reason (I'll give you 99 guesses), but has anyone noticed that reason posting lately?

 

[Adam]

It's because everyone is posting in the Referee Only area. Have we killed him off?

I think the discussions have been more relevant and interesting as a consequence.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This seems to me to be a very good point. If, in the field of play, a ball carrier on top of another player is deemed to have been brought to ground, why is this not also the case in touch? Great spot, NKW - but that's not to say you are right . I just can't for the moment figure out why you are wrong.

He's wrong because he's applying a set of circumstances to one Law (19) that were intended for another Law (15)

LAW 15.1 WHERE CAN A TACKLE TAKE PLACE
A tackle can only take place in the field of play.

LAW 1 DEFINITIONS
The Field of play is the area (as shown on the plan) between the goal lines and the touchlines. These lines are not part of the field of play.

ergo, In-goal and In-touch are not in the field of play

In the field of play, a player brought to ground on top of another player is ruled as a tackled player in order to ensure that he meets his obligations under Law 15.

Since In-goal is not in the Field of Play (as defined in Law), a tackle cannot take place, therefore Law 15 does not apply. There is no requirement for the player to release the ball, nor can a ruck or maul form.

Since Gold 13 in David J's example went into In-goal first, White 11 was not tackled according to Law 15, therefore the fact that he was in physical contact with Gold 13 on the ground is not relevant.

This brings us back to Law 19, and the defined criteria that outline how the ball is put into touch. Since none of those criteria are met, the ball is not in touch, therefore the try should be awarded

 

[Phil E]

Is it the same scenario as a maul?

If the whole maul are bound together and the ball is in the middle, you wouldn't call touch if a player on the edge of the maul put a foot in touch ?