Tackles from Digby Ioane...

[Owen Bisto Taylor]

http://www.rugbydump.com/2014/05/3707/digby-ioane-manhandles-bryan-habana-in-tense-top-14-clash

Thoughts gents?

 

[crossref]

first one (habana landing head first) looked worse than the second (habana brought safely down)

 

[Owen Bisto Taylor]

I thought the same, second one he was brought down as safely as possible.. but the 1st could have ended very differently?

 

[crossref]

RC for the 1st 1, PK and stern word for the second ?

 

[menace]

RC for the 1st 1, PK and stern word for the second ?

How soon we forget the directives for LIFTING tackles.

1st one..imo legs/hips do not go past the horizontal so not a YC/RC for lifting tackle past horizontal. If anything it could be YC (RC) for straight out dangerous tackle. Personally i think YC for that one.
2nd one..legs lifted well past the horizontal so regardless of what happened next, by the irb rules, the minimum that had to be was a YC. What probably saved it from RC was that habana wasnt dropped or didnt land on his shoulder/head.

(Had Ione been yc the first time..i doubt he would have done the 2nd and if he did then a justified 2x YC = RC)

 

[Browner]

Does anyone else think Habanas body movements are deliberate to make the lifts appear worse, it has a slight smell of contrived to my eye?

 

[Toby Warren]

How soon we forget the directives for LIFTING tackles.

1st one..imo legs/hips do not go past the horizontal so not a YC/RC for lifting tackle past horizontal. If anything it could be YC (RC) for straight out dangerous tackle. Personally i think YC for that one.
2nd one..legs lifted well past the horizontal so regardless of what happened next, by the irb rules, the minimum that had to be was a YC. What probably saved it from RC was that habana wasnt dropped or didnt land on his shoulder/head.

(Had Ione been yc the first time..i doubt he would have done the 2nd and if he did then a justified 2x YC = RC)

Can someone repost the memo I don't recall it saying anything about legs/hips (but haven't read it for a while)

 

[crossref]

How soon we forget the directives for LIFTING tackles.

.
2nd one..legs lifted well past the horizontal so regardless of what happened next, by the irb rules, the minimum that had to be was a YC.

Reference for that?
- that's not what the 2009 memo said http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php/2009_Memo_on_Dangerous_Tackles
- It's not clear that the 2009 memo is still current, but I've not seen any other IRB memo that says that, either.

(But I do accept, as reported here on the forum, some national unions have given out guidance to this effect)

 

[crossref]

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[Simon Thomas]

in agreement with crossref - RC for 1st tackle which meets all criteria as set (including the double arm lift)

the second was a rotation by Habana and Ioane brought him to ground safely - PK and bollocking only

 

[RobLev]

Ioane does have a lot of previous; when is he going to get the message that a static lift is not a good move in a tackle?

 

[Ian_Cook]

in agreement with crossref - RC for 1st tackle which meets all criteria as set (including the double arm lift)

the second was a rotation by Habana and Ioane brought him to ground safely - PK and bollocking only

He actually risked injury to himself by doing what he did (bringing the player safely down on top of himself), but I agree, first one is RC.

 

[Simon Thomas]

He actually risked injury to himself by doing what he did (bringing the player safely down on top of himself), but I agree, first one is RC.

Robbie - please can we claim a first for RRF ! Ian Cook, crossref and myself in total agreement on something

 

[Ian_Cook]

How soon we forget the directives for LIFTING tackles.

1st one..imo legs/hips do not go past the horizontal so not a YC/RC for lifting tackle past horizontal. If anything it could be YC (RC) for straight out dangerous tackle. Personally i think YC for that one.
2nd one..legs lifted well past the horizontal so regardless of what happened next, by the irb rules, the minimum that had to be was a YC. What probably saved it from RC was that habana wasnt dropped or didnt land on his shoulder/head.)

No, I disagree.

Once the rotation is past horizontal, its not the degree of rotation that determines the colour of the card; it is what happens next that is key. There are three mandatory RC scenarios (spear, drop, force) and then one either PK or YC according to the referee's judgement. There is NO minimum YC requirement in the directive.

[LAWS]To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the
ground:
► The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.[/LAWS]

In the second one, Habana wasn't dropped, nor was he speared or forced, so RC is out of the question.

Therefore, this one comes under the "other types of lifting tackles" category, and since Ioane brings Habana down safely on top of himself (at some personal risk) without that player's head or shoulders striking the ground, IMO YC is off the menu as well.

PK and warning to be careful.

 

[talbazar]

No, I disagree.

Once the rotation is past horizontal, its not the degree of rotation that determines the colour of the card; it is what happens next that is key. There are three mandatory RC scenarios (spear, drop, force) and then one either PK or YC according to the referee's judgement. There is NO minimum YC requirement in the directive.

[LAWS]To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the
ground:
► The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.[/LAWS]

In the second one, Habana wasn't dropped, nor was he speared or forced, so RC is out of the question.

Therefore, this one comes under the "other types of lifting tackles" category, and since Ioane brings Habana down safely on top of himself (at some personal risk) without that player's head or shoulders striking the ground, IMO YC is off the menu as well.

PK and warning to be careful.

I'm fully with you on this one...

 

[RobLev]

No, I disagree.

Once the rotation is past horizontal, its not the degree of rotation that determines the colour of the card; it is what happens next that is key. There are three mandatory RC scenarios (spear, drop, force) and then one either PK or YC according to the referee's judgement. There is NO minimum YC requirement in the directive.

[LAWS]To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the
ground:
► The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

► For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.[/LAWS]

In the second one, Habana wasn't dropped, nor was he speared or forced, so RC is out of the question.

Therefore, this one comes under the "other types of lifting tackles" category, and since Ioane brings Habana down safely on top of himself (at some personal risk) without that player's head or shoulders striking the ground, IMO YC is off the menu as well.

PK and warning to be careful.

In case it's unclear from my comment; agreed, assuming the warning is along the lines of "Don't pick him up. When are you going to learn...".

 

[irishref]

Second Ione tackle, Digby did as much as he possibly could to bring the player down safely, basically by acting as his cushioned airbed to fall onto! Agreed on PK and stern word.

First Ione tackle: for a start it seems pretty late so already in YC territory for the timing. Now with reference to the 2009 memo:

point 1 is not relevant, no force or spear
point 2 - yes Habana is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard for his safety

So yeah, looks like we have a match to 1 of the 2 certain red card instructions in the memo.