That should never be seen in our game - Kolelishvili vs. Barnes

Rushforth


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I don't understand why you think giving a red card will result in a lesser sentence than a citing?

Perhaps because I am not saying it currently will, but rather because a citing commissioner can look at the actual evidence, and so can whatever tribunal decides to do next.

There are some offences in rugby which might be punished much more seriously than they are by "us". Quite a lot of dangerous tackles for example are not deliberate, just a natural result of what happens when you throw two big bodies at each other often enough.

This incident was certainly deliberate, but in the opinion of WB clearly not seen as threatening. Imagine the exact same push on you after a player has been penalised, without him stepping back, I'd imagine most of us would consider that an act of "lèse majesté", yet it seems to happen in that game with a round ball (at the very least figuratively) all the time.

If a court of law had to rule on whether this was assault, I'd struggle to see them find anything but innocent, because it clearly wasn't assault.

Again, I agree with those who thought it should have been red immediately, simply to set a standard. In retrospect, perhaps WB wishes he had done so now, and I believe that a message has been sent should anything like this happen again, at any level, a RC is appropriate.

The player is unlikely to make the same mistake again, regardless of what the suspension term is.

All I'm pointing out is that since he hadn't been carded in the game, it became a choice of LE 24 or doing nothing. No middle ground would have been left. I'm not even saying that a lower category of offence should have been used, just that perhaps it could.

Hope that helps, my apologies if I remain unclear.
 

RobLev

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If a court of law had to rule on whether this was assault, I'd struggle to see them find anything but innocent, because it clearly wasn't assault.

...

Just to pick this up; I don't know what the law is in the Netherlands, but in England and Wales that was a quite clear assault (and battery) at common law.
 

crossref


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Just to pick this up; I don't know what the law is in the Netherlands, but in England and Wales that was a quite clear assault (and battery) at common law.

out of interest, how does common law deal with normal play in rugby -- ie how does it take account of context of an action which would be assault on the street, but is normal in rugby, like tackling.
 

OB..


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Just to pick this up; I don't know what the law is in the Netherlands, but in England and Wales that was a quite clear assault (and battery) at common law.
Basically "assault" is making someone fear violence whereas "battery" is actual physical violence.

out of interest, how does common law deal with normal play in rugby -- ie how does it take account of context of an action which would be assault on the street, but is normal in rugby, like tackling.
Volenti non fit injuria.

However this is limited to actions that might occur during normal play and does not extend to actions outside the laws of the game..
 

Rich_NL

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out of interest, how does common law deal with normal play in rugby -- ie how does it take account of context of an action which would be assault on the street, but is normal in rugby, like tackling.

One can consent to violence in the sense of organised sports - a boxing match in a ring is not assault, nor judo randori on mats, while in the streets it would be affray or similar. I think there's an anomaly in the UK in that you can't consent to be injured in private sexual play while you can in a public sport, but I'm not a lawyer.

Foul play is definitely legally open to recourse, though - I read recently of a soccer player found guilty of (IIRC) GBH for a double-footed ankle stamp that was clearly aimed at the person and smashed his leg.
 

FlipFlop


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The RFU has a legal document, that sets out what you consent to when you step onto the field of player, that outside the field might be deemed illegal.
 

MrQeu

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In Spain and in some sports, AFAIK and IANAL, if it's something inherent to the sport (a tackle), no problem. If it's something inherent to the sport but made recklessly (a tip tackle while genuinely playing the sport), no problem, just sport consequences. If it's something deliberately done not in the spirit of the sport (a tip tackle 30m away from the ball, a punch not in boxing, deliberately attacking an official, etc), well, you should go get a lawyer.

I personally know the case of a basketball ref who sued a player after a sucker punch and getting about 6000€
 

Rawling

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The RFU has a legal document, that sets out what you consent to when you step onto the field of player, that outside the field might be deemed illegal.

Do you have a link to this? Is it for a player or a referee? (Not questioning, just curious...)
 

Pegleg

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In Spain and in some sports, AFAIK and IANAL, if it's something inherent to the sport (a tackle), no problem. If it's something inherent to the sport but made recklessly (a tip tackle while genuinely playing the sport), no problem, just sport consequences. If it's something deliberately done not in the spirit of the sport (a tip tackle 30m away from the ball, a punch not in boxing, deliberately attacking an official, etc), well, you should go get a lawyer.

I personally know the case of a basketball ref who sued a player after a sucker punch and getting about 6000€


Yes you consent to play within the laws of the game you are playing. You agree to anything that may occur from the lawful playing of said game.
 

SimonSmith


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In Spain and in some sports, AFAIK and IANAL, if it's something inherent to the sport (a tackle), no problem. If it's something inherent to the sport but made recklessly (a tip tackle while genuinely playing the sport), no problem, just sport consequences.

See: Paul Elliott vs Dean Saunders
 

FlipFlop


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Do you have a link to this? Is it for a player or a referee? (Not questioning, just curious...)

I only know of the paper copy in the Museum of Rugby (which has the library as well). As far as I know, anyone can as to see it.
 
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