The skill and luck of the bokke

crossref


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if someone could actually use the footage, then we could see a chronological analysis of bunker decisions.
it would be fantastic cohernce exercise to wait a little whole, then have a review of all the bunker decisions - in a random order - and decide them all over again.
 

didds

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NZ did of course win the card count at the RWC with 6 (4 Y and 2 R), but obviously played the most games.
??

They cant have played more games than SA, Eng or Arg though?
 

kudu314

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Honestly think this comes down to coaching and player effort. The bunker system etc was first trialled at Super Rugby in NZ and hailed as a major success with 20 minute red cards as well. However, the 20 minute red card did nothing to change player behaviour and is actually a sort of cop out considering the number of former professional players in their 40's I know who have cognitive issues, one in particular with early onset dimentia and another with Parkinson's disease. The rest of the world embraced the bunker as it is an innovative and great way to adjudicate a matter without influence. But I digress.

The fact that Pieter Steph Du Toit could complete 28 tackles in the game without so much as a penalty or that Richie Mounga and Jordie Barret had their ribs re-arranged on several occasions by Springbok players and couldn't complete offloads in those tackles tells me it is possible to coach and mitigate cards from the game. The Kolisi and Kolbe cards come to mind, both warranted and neither because of poor technique, merely consequences of positive play gone wrong because of the dynamics of a game of Rugby. Sliding up from a good tackle to hit an opponents head or slapping at a ball in an instant to try and kill momentum and maybe even regather the ball, both fairly punished.
 

crossref


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The fact that Pieter Steph Du Toit could complete 28 tackles in the game without so much as a penalty or that Richie Mounga and Jordie Barret had their ribs re-arranged on several occasions by Springbok players and couldn't complete offloads in those tackles tells me it is possible to coach and mitigate cards from the game.
Agree that PSDT has excellent technique.
but, let's face it if he continues to do >20 tackles a game then law of probability says that at some point he is going to be unlucky, and he will get a RC.

And then everyone will chime in with the familiar 'players just have to learn''its not RC that are ruinng the game it's players' "a Red is a Red'

And he'll get his sanction halved for having an exemplary record (and people will make jokes about about biscuit eating'
Or he'll contest the card and people will chime in saying 'always a red, every day and twice on sunday'
and he'll do the tackle traimning to get a week off -- and people will say 'its ridiculous that PSDT needs tackle training!"

and the whole sorry system will continue. ....
 

didds

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The only point I would make on CR's excellent post is that PDST nonwethless knows that his techniaue while excellent still runs the risk of a RC as he has to be living right on the edge (albeit superbly) of getting an "accidental head collision". So he IS culpable wrt "players just have to learn''its not RC that are ruining the game it's players' "a Red is a Red'"
 

tim White


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Once World Rugby lower the tackle height for the so called Elite Game (makes the money) then fewer red cards will ensue. It will change the game -for the better -and will stop the parents of todays children preventing them from playing the game. I would also like to say head on head contact has never been a problem at the level I observe; solve the problem where the problem actually is!
 

crossref


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Once World Rugby lower the tackle height for the so called Elite Game (makes the money) then fewer red cards will ensue. It will change the game -for the better -and will stop the parents of todays children preventing them from playing the game. I would also like to say head on head contact has never been a problem at the level I observe; solve the problem where the problem actually is!
I hope so, but I fear that WR have fallen in love with RCs
 

kudu314

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Agree that PSDT has excellent technique.
but, let's face it if he continues to do >20 tackles a game then law of probability says that at some point he is going to be unlucky, and he will get a RC.

And then everyone will chime in with the familiar 'players just have to learn''its not RC that are ruinng the game it's players' "a Red is a Red'

And he'll get his sanction halved for having an exemplary record (and people will make jokes about about biscuit eating'
Or he'll contest the card and people will chime in saying 'always a red, every day and twice on sunday'
and he'll do the tackle traimning to get a week off -- and people will say 'its ridiculous that PSDT needs tackle training!"

and the whole sorry system will continue. ....
That might be. But let's look at recent history, PSDT was red carded at a cleanout against France in 2022 after being pushed into the ruck area by Kwagga Smith. His technique etc was influenced by something outisde of his control which resulted in the RC, not a lapse in judgement or his "luck" running out.

Professional players don't have to "learn" anything and I find that reasoning extremely poor when people use it. If you've spent any amount of time around professional players you'll know that the vast majority of the decisions they make on the field are pre-planned or coached and fine tuned to such a degree that they instinctively react in certain ways depending on what's in front of them. Players live by the mantra of control the controlable and luck just isn't part of their world. People chiming in with comments or saying a red is a red etc have absolutely nothing to do with the current la and the protocols and framework that's in place. Neither do outside people's comments have any bearing or influence on what a team or players are doing. But what is clear in the original example is that the fine margins matter and when you hone your skillset at Super Rugby level where RC's have little consequence like Sam Cane, you feel you can take a chance at a high entry to a tackle. Whereas when you hone your skillset in URC where the RC has much more dire consequences, you make sure you're technique is perfect like Siya Kolisi and when a decision is made that's outside of your control, you are much more certain of the potential outcome.
 

crossref


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That might be. But let's look at recent history, PSDT was red carded at a cleanout against France in 2022 after being pushed into the ruck area by Kwagga Smith. His technique etc was influenced by something outisde of his control which resulted in the RC, not a lapse in judgement or his "luck" running out.
That does feel like his luck ran out
Did he get a ban for that ?
 
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Volun-selected


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Couple of questions/thoughts…

Is the Bunker going to continue, if so any changes anticipated to the process? St. Nige isn’t happy but maybe that’s just because he’s not been in the process of using it (I would, however, like to know what the RWC refs thought of it.)

With the advent of the smart mouth guards/gum shields that track impacts in real time, I wonder if that may be used to gauge whether an impact was significant enough to be deemed “high degree of danger” allowing the system to keep more Product on the pitch?
 

shebeen

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Honestly think this comes down to coaching and player effort. The bunker system etc was first trialled at Super Rugby in NZ and hailed as a major success with 20 minute red cards as well. However, the 20 minute red card did nothing to change player behaviour and is actually a sort of cop out considering the number of former professional players in their 40's I know who have cognitive issues, one in particular with early onset dimentia and another with Parkinson's disease. The rest of the world embraced the bunker as it is an innovative and great way to adjudicate a matter without influence. But I digress.
since the last world cup, my provincial (club) team has gone from super rugby to URC. The style of play and interpretation of the laws has been a huge shift. As an exercise watch a super rugby NZ derby in the morning and a URC clash in the afternoon, it's a different game! I'm not sure if trialling it there gives the best data. I'm a firm believer that the orange card is the answer, and over time it will prove itself given the chance.

The fact that Pieter Steph Du Toit could complete 28 tackles in the game without so much as a penalty or that Richie Mounga and Jordie Barret had their ribs re-arranged on several occasions by Springbok players and couldn't complete offloads in those tackles tells me it is possible to coach and mitigate cards from the game. The Kolisi and Kolbe cards come to mind, both warranted and neither because of poor technique, merely consequences of positive play gone wrong because of the dynamics of a game of Rugby. Sliding up from a good tackle to hit an opponents head or slapping at a ball in an instant to try and kill momentum and maybe even regather the ball, both fairly punished.

The latest podcast here goes into this exact topic. Dr Tucker sits on the WR injury/technique commitee and is very transparent on it. The anecdote here is that the change in tackle laws got a direct comment from J Nienaber, he felt it was going to take away one of their strengths. They then worked actively to adapt tackle technique, knowing that cards would come freely if they didn't. The feeling is that NZ went on business as usual and the end result is a higher card percentage.

I believe it is not made up.
 

kudu314

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since the last world cup, my provincial (club) team has gone from super rugby to URC. The style of play and interpretation of the laws has been a huge shift. As an exercise watch a super rugby NZ derby in the morning and a URC clash in the afternoon, it's a different game! I'm not sure if trialling it there gives the best data. I'm a firm believer that the orange card is the answer, and over time it will prove itself given the chance.



The latest podcast here goes into this exact topic. Dr Tucker sits on the WR injury/technique commitee and is very transparent on it. The anecdote here is that the change in tackle laws got a direct comment from J Nienaber, he felt it was going to take away one of their strengths. They then worked actively to adapt tackle technique, knowing that cards would come freely if they didn't. The feeling is that NZ went on business as usual and the end result is a higher card percentage.

I believe it is not made up.
Orange card is a possible idea. I listened to that pod yesterday and thought that's exactly why the Springboks had "luck" when it came to the cards. That luck was based on hard work changing a fundamental aspect and strength and focussing it to work within the laws. I was also interested to hear that when the head contact protocol was first introduced one of the complaints from referees was that the language was too stringent and they requested that the protocol language be more open to interpretation.
 

crossref


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Orange card is a possible idea. I listened to that pod yesterday and thought that's exactly why the Springboks had "luck" when it came to the cards. That luck was based on hard work changing a fundamental aspect and strength and focussing it to work within the laws. I was also interested to hear that when the head contact protocol was first introduced one of the complaints from referees was that the language was too stringent and they requested that the protocol language be more open to interpretation.
Well, I think Etsebeth was lucky not to get a YC in the final , when he was a lazy runner.
NO thought so too , in whistle watch, if you don't remember the incident
 

kudu314

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Well, I think Etsebeth was lucky not to get a YC in the final , when he was a lazy runner.
NO thought so too , in whistle watch, if you don't remember the incident
I recall the incident and thought A Smith was lucky not giving away a penalty for throwing the ball into a player to try and milk a penalty. I recall Faf De Klerk should have been red carded for such an offense on a seperate thread on this forum...;)
 

crossref


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I recall the incident and thought A Smith was lucky not giving away a penalty for throwing the ball into a player to try and milk a penalty. I recall Faf De Klerk should have been red carded for such an offense on a seperate thread on this forum...;)
he he :) not by me !
 

shebeen

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I recall the incident and thought A Smith was lucky not giving away a penalty for throwing the ball into a player to try and milk a penalty. I recall Faf De Klerk should have been red carded for such an offense on a seperate thread on this forum...;)
Exactly. At the least the correct call for throwing the ball into an offside player is a scrum to the attacking team.
 

Stu10


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Kwagga Smith definitely had luck on his side this tournament, and match outcomes arguably hinged on those actions/decisions:

The third call against France was late in the second half when Springbok flanker Kwagga Smith won a penalty at the breakdown.
Handre Pollard would convert the penalty in the 68th minute to put South Africa ahead, but the review states that France should have got the penalty instead, with Smith not supporting his body weight when going over to compete for the ball.

Foster acknowledged that some things did not go his team’s way whilst also outlining that he believes the All Blacks should have been handed a kick to win right at the end.
“I think the World Cup should have finished on a penalty to us, near where Jordie missed his first kick.
Kwagga Smith clearly had hands on the ground when he won a ball at the breakdown that we didn’t get a penalty for."
 

shebeen

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Kwagga Smith definitely had luck on his side this tournament, and match outcomes arguably hinged on those actions/decisions:

Not very scientific going on leaked excerpts of a report, but let's run with this clickbaity article anyway. 3 errors in favour of SA, 2 in FRA. Is that justification enough to lambast the referee? Still wondering if Antoine 'untouchable' DuPont gets any sanction for openly complaining about BO'K not being up to standard in the official press conference?

Coming from RSA this seems like double standards to me, maybe I am just biased. Here is the statement from WR after Rassie was banned for some sarcastic looking tweets highlighting the errors made by Wayne Barnes in a match involving that same French team, where they won a very close game in a lot of controversy (including 2 RC).

World Rugby has reviewed the recent social media posts by SA Rugby Director of Rugby, Rassie Erasmus that relate to match officiating in the Autumn Nations Series.

Match officials are the backbone of the sport, and without them, there is no game. World Rugby condemns any public criticism of match official selection, performance or integrity, which undermines their role, the trust-based coach/match officials feedback process and the values of integrity, respect, solidarity and discipline that are at the heart of the sport.



Then there's this call before the tournament started, seems to have been ignored for monsieur Du Pont.

Since he's no longer the coach, is his unofficial NZ Rugby role to drop in complaints about refereeing decisions since banning him is now meaningless?
 

Stu10


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Generally speaking, I think Smith got away with a lot of "hands beyond the ball supporting weight" throughout the tournament based on my own observations watches the matches, but I provided those two critical examples reported in the media rather than simply my own general feeling without giving specific examples. I'm sure many other players also got away with similar infringements, but Smith was involved in a couple of key breakdowns, thus drawing attention.
 
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