The soccer style wall

[Ian_Cook]

Exactly.


Are we limited to one?

There is a very big difference between decoy runners

and the "soccer style wall" that the OP is talking about

 

[TheBFG]

No obstruction (at no point is the ball-carrier behind the wall), perfectly good try. BUT - not what the OP described.

I believe this is exactly what the OP is talking about (post #63), this is "the wall tactic" that has been used for years, perhaps the OPer would like to confirm?

 

[davidgh]

Dixie, No probs, I also don't think it was drivel.

Yes, I have refereeed lots of u11/12 games (stopped 3 yrs ago). I have pinged walls on a number of occasions. Sometimes a penalty and sometimes "come on lads, you can't do that, let's just play rugby, take it again" thereby the coach is just naturally embarassed. I have been questioned after the event, but never aggressively on this topic.

The wall is almost always set by mediocre teams trying to be clever in the face of strong opposition, and yes advised by their coach. This isn't a slick, speedily dispersed manouevre, it is a slow to set up, slow to disperse action, to obvious, to time consuming and just obviously obstructive.

Yes you could aim for the end of the wall, but doesn't this prove the obstructive nature of the wall. Frankly, if you were trying to define obstruction - this would be it - place lots of stationery - non retiring players between the ball and the oppo and just stand there whilst the game goes on around you, all off-side and all obstructive.

If it was 2 players each side of the ball carrier who quickly dispersed into a running formation and ran behind the ball carrier - so be it - but there wouldn't be much point.

So I stand behind my original position with nice legal back up from some good folk on here. A bad play, badly staged and bad for the game. Just stop it and play proper rugby please.

 

[FlipFlop]

My main question with a wall is:

Would you penalise the defence for tackling the man without the ball, if they decided to take out everyone in the wall. (not knowing who has it)

If you would penalise them, then you are denying them the right to contest the ball, which is one of the main principals of the game.

At junior levels I would argue that arranging yourself (in a wall) with your back to the opposition, standing still, not expecting contact, is potentially dangerous play.

The example in youtube posted above is a good example of the wall - the wall scattered fairly quickly, and was basically like decoy runners. The issue is most walls you see, is that they are not over that quickly, and the defence get there while the ball is still "in" the wall. Often with one player infront of the ball carrier......

If the wall is there for too long, and players are infront of the ball carrier, I would be tempted to penalise for obstruction. If a wall is used as a decoy, and the play moves on quickly, then play on. It is not the wall itself I have problems with.

 

[OB..]

I think the purpose of the tactic is to confuse the oppo as to who and/or where the ball is, not to block the oppo from a ball carrier. A bit of slight of hand.

That may be the purpose, but it is not necessarily the effect. It is the latter you have to deal with.

 

[Taff]

I think the purpose of the tactic is to confuse the oppo as to who and/or where the ball is, not to block the oppo from a ball carrier. A bit of slight of hand.

That may be the purpose, but it is not necessarily the effect. It is the latter you have to deal with.

And if it achieves the first objective (ie to confuse the opposition) without any adverse secondary effect (ie no obstruction) would you be happy if we played on?

 

[crossref]

And if it achieves the first objective (ie to confuse the opposition) without any adverse secondary effect (ie no obstruction) would you be happy if we played on?

in adult rugby yes
in U12 rugby, which the OP was all about, I think davidgh in post #83 sets out a sensible approach.

 

[OB..]

in adult rugby yes
in U12 rugby, which the OP was all about, I think davidgh in post #83 sets out a sensible approach.

Agreed.

 

[Wedgie]

about how to maange this sort of 'wall' move, specifically at U12 , u13 level. Many of the comments here have backed up their thinknig with examples from adult (even international) rugby, which is different.

who has actually seen/refereed this at U12/U13 ? what did the referee do ? how was it handled, how should it be?

So I have reffed U6s upwards for ~12yrs and now have 3yrs of adult experience. I have not seen it (as described by the OP) in adult rugby or junior rugby since I was at school. I have seen the Sale-type wall an quite a few occasions in both junior and adult rugby, but never to the success as shown in the clip.

TBH, in U12s, nearly 100% of the time the defending team will stand on their line 10m back from the mark, stand and watch and wait until the attacker with the ball reaches them - coaches and parents yelling "DON'T JUST STAND THERE!!!!!" - whether a wall is used or someone just taps and goes.....Maybe one or two switched on defenders will race up, but at that age they are purely chasing the ball and will avoid the unnecessary contact.

 

[davidgh]

So I have reffed U6s upwards for ~12yrs and now have 3yrs of adult experience. I have not seen it (as described by the OP) in adult rugby or junior rugby since I was at school. I have seen the Sale-type wall an quite a few occasions in both junior and adult rugby, but never to the success as shown in the clip.

TBH, in U12s, nearly 100% of the time the defending team will stand on their line 10m back from the mark, stand and watch and wait until the attacker with the ball reaches them - coaches and parents yelling "DON'T JUST STAND THERE!!!!!" - whether a wall is used or someone just taps and goes.....Maybe one or two switched on defenders will race up, but at that age they are purely chasing the ball and will avoid the unnecessary contact.

Wedgie, the u12 game you ref is very different from the slick fairly aggressive game I am used to in Surrey, they certainly don't stand around when the ball is with the oppo.

The Ball does not remain in the wall after the penalty has been taken it is past back immediately, the whole wall are therefore potentially offside, partic if obstructing the oppo.

It is a fairly simple call for the ref, and more importantly nobody is going to think his call is unfair or unreasonable.

If you are worried about the infringement, give them the benefit of the doubt and tell them, 'no walls - you will be penalised - just play rugby please, take it again.

 

[The Fat]

Every one of those defenders are thinking they are going to cop one in the Jatz Crackers. What a great photo for a "What are they saying/thinking contest". Old mate 2nd from left has already soiled his undies.

Re topic, agree with davidgh

 

[crossref]

Wedgie, the u12 game you ref is very different from the slick fairly aggressive game I am used to in Surrey, they certainly don't stand around when the ball is with the oppo.

The Ball does not remain in the wall after the penalty has been taken it is past back immediately, the whole wall are therefore potentially offside, partic if obstructing the oppo.

It is a fairly simple call for the ref, and more importantly nobody is going to think his call is unfair or unreasonable.

If you are worried about the infringement, give them the benefit of the doubt and tell them, 'no walls - you will be penalised - just play rugby please, take it again.

my club and davidgh play in the same circuit and I concur with him.
I happened to ref U12 last week - this was the first time in four years I have gone below U13, so I had forgotten quite what to expect. It was a Middlesex Champioship game, fast and aggressive but so crowded on the half-size pitch! I can remember what a relief it was to get to U13 and the coaches finally have space to use.

Perhaps this lack of space is the root cause of the sort of contrived moves you do see at U12 U11 where options are so limited.

Once you get to a full size pitch the attration of building walls and so on is much less : much more is gained by playing good rugby.

 

[davidgh]

Guys,

Our thanks must go to Ian Cook - post #71 - This shows it is an open and shut case

The players in the wall, including the 'penalty taker' are intentionally obstructing the game. PENALTY

Are they also off side? - the ball has gone back to the runner and they fail to make a positive effort to retire immediately to a position behind the ball - PENALTY

 

[Phil E]

If there's more than 3 people in the wall, and they are all obstructing, is that a yellow for instant repeated infringement? :biggrin: :tongue: :sarc:

 

[Taff]

I am slowly wavering on this.

I still reckon it isn't obstruction if there isn't an opponent there to be physically obstructed, BUT I can now see how the wall could be pinged for offside, as they are in front of the ball carrier and "interfereing with play".

If they were to argue that they weren't interfereing with play ..... well why bother forming a wall then? The wall was formed for a reason, ie to confuse the opposition - so that will be "interfereing with play" then.

IMO it's more likely to be offside in open play (PK / scrum option) than physical obstruction.

 

[nottheorgangrinder]

I've not seen this at U10s but, if I did come across a load of players in a planned wall-type formation standing in front of the ball carrier straight after a restart, my automatic reaction would be 'offside'. I think I would give a little toot and ask them to retake and not do that again (I'd steal the line from a previous poster about playing some rugby instead) and ping them if they try it again.

What would be running through my mind, however, would probably be something along the lines of 'Don't the coaches have anything better to do during their training sessions?!' Our lot have enough trouble understanding that they're actually allowed to run towards the opposition's end of the pitch and pass to a team-mate at the same time. Without stopping...