The soccer style wall

[crossref]

Every club i know basically has that policy in place already.
But you don't want to stack too many barriers in front of a father of an u12, in a squad without a ref, who decides he would like to take up the whistle. . My focus would be to encourage him (and indeed to get him through ELRA) . Local ELRA aren't scheduled every week.
In his first season pre ELRA he wouldnt jump in with a Middlesex Championship game, but if felt comfortable refereeing an u12 b friendly I don't think that's inappropriate, you have to start somewhere.

Anyway ELRA is a great course but it doesn't make you a ref in the way that experience does

 

[Simon Thomas]

So we're clear then. It's not illegal, it's a local CB guidance - that operates beyond LoTG. I'm sure we see similar in tournaments ....example = 'no hand offs' at U13 despite Law allowing them. My personal view is the CB shouldn't get involved, if it's such an issue they should campaign to have it covered in ELRA or the RFU to endorse their concerns inside Age Grade RFU regulations. Local changes aren't the way forward, I've seen neighbouring CB's have different rules on the same subject, & it causes mass confusion for cross border matches

Browner - CBs and Comps Committees operate under delegated powers given to them by RFU. You may be right saying that they should campiagn at RFU level, but thsat is NOT how the system currently works.
Such guidance works alongside L0TG not beyond.
Hand offs at U13 is a totally different issue and usually a 'local rule' or clunb competition rule not set or endorsed by CB.

The CB and Comps Commmittee has to be involved as they have duty of care and management responsibility for matches in their juristication under the current constitution of the RFU.

Totally agree re cross CB border differences, but until RFU put a fully paid national admin. team in position, instead of relying on CB level volunteers this is going to keep happening.

 

[Simon Thomas]

If the RFU ruled that no person could referee 'contact matches' unless he was ELRA, then there you have your control point. Clubs would follow suit, with the added benefit of more 'dads' starting off on the proper-ref bottom rung of the ladder. win win me thinks ?

I can't see the RFU making such a ruling - offer guidance, strongly recommend perhaps, but not mandatory. Just not how they work in the area of Youth rugby.

It is getting better and better since ELRA first came in and some CBs insist on all referees being ELRA qualified (ours does), but there are many CBs and clubs who do not have enough ELRA qualified club ELRA referees, so do the kids go without a match ?

 

[Ian_Cook]

So turning your back to an opponent is against the law?

Law reference?

Take your pick!

[LAWS]LAW 10.1 OBSTRUCTION

(b) Running in front of a ball carrier. A player must not intentionally move or stand in front of
a team-mate carrying the ball thereby preventing opponents from tackling the current ball
carrier or the opportunity to tackle potential ball carriers when they gain possession.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c) Blocking the tackler. A player must not intentionally move or stand in a position that
prevents an opponent from tackling a ball carrier.
Sanction: Penalty kick

[/LAWS]

Drivel!

Ruck. Ball emerges from the rear. Immediately ping the obstructing ex-ruckers? I think not.

You wouldn't necessarily PK the ex-ruckers, but you could PK the ex-pillars either side if they were stretched out far enough. IIRC Nigel Owen PK's Ireland's No. 4 for this in the most recent match against the All Blacks.

ETA: about 5:30 in on the YT clock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRFuTM_p-GU

 

[Taff]

Take your pick!

But in the OP the opposition made no attempt to even get to the ball, so I fail to see how that is obstruction. What are they obstructing? And in the post which prompted my reply, DavidGH suggested that it was an offence regardless of whether there was an "attack".

This crops up from time to time in Surrey Minis. Needs pinging the minute it appears. No need for an attack for it to be obstruction. The minute the ball goes behind the wall - ping

IMO it may be deception (which is legal) but I wouldn't describe it as obstruction. If the opposition had any sense, they would just run around the wall .... or run into the wall which would then make it obstruction. They did neither.

... You wouldn't necessarily PK the ex-ruckers, but you could PK the ex-pillars either side if they were stretched out far enough. IIRC Nigel Owen PK's Ireland's No. 4 for this in the most recent match against the All Blacks.

I think NO just PKd Ireland for a blatant obstruction. The Green player deliberately runs across the field (all onside) into the path of the NZ player who was trying to get to the BC. I can see that that is obstruction.

 

[crossref]

I love the way that people advise 12 year old with reference to what they have seen international games..

I would like to hear from some people with current experience of reffing u12

 

[Browner]

I can't see the RFU making such a ruling - offer guidance, strongly recommend perhaps, but not mandatory. Just not how they work in the area of Youth rugby.

It is getting better and better since ELRA first came in and some CBs insist on all referees being ELRA qualified (ours does), but there are many CBs and clubs who do not have enough ELRA qualified club ELRA referees, so do the kids go without a match ?

Simon, It's frankly ludicrous to have CB's creating their own subset of U7-U19's reg's based on their unique interpretation of what is & isn't required. Introducing a minimum referee level it next season at 'contact' would give ample notice to those parents who get involved at u7,8 + etc . Everyone absorbs all changes without too much angst. I applaud those CB's that do insist on qualified referees , I wonder how they got to such a situation to do so? Perhaps they actively promoted Courses etc..... There is a correlation between those that don't 'train & improve expertise' & those who cause the problems that we are talking about. In my club our worst age group had the lowest coaching, refereeing & 1st aid qualifications & they always cited reasons why they couldn't - but other age groups always managed it .... 'appetite & apathy' are the biggest obstacle often.

 

[Browner]

I would like to hear from some people with current experience of reffing u12

Ok, what do you want to chat about?

 

[davidgh]

Drivel!

Ruck. Ball emerges from the rear. Immediately ping the obstructing ex-ruckers? I think not.

Dixie - so rude - not normally like you - getting grumpy?

Nobody said anything about a ruck, surely a ruck forms around the ball and disperses once the ball is out.

THe players forming a wall whether forward or backward facing are surely standing stationary in front of the ball, with the specific objective of obstructing the oppo, both visually and physically.

Offside
Obstruction
possibly even unsportsmanlike!

you clearly have a different view, but please do avoid abuse, I haven't seen it on here before!

 

[Taff]

... THe players forming a wall whether forward or backward facing are surely standing stationary in front of the ball, with the specific objective of obstructing the oppo, both visually and physically.

I think they've done it to deceive or confuse the opposition, and if they're not careful it can become "obstruction" but it isn't obstruction yet .... until somebody gets obstructed surely. Potential obstruction isn't an offence, but the wall needs to make sure it doesn't create an obstruction.

As for unsportsmanlike, I can't see the difference between forming a wall and having runners shoot off in different directions, and throwing a dummy pass or a decoy runner. We not only allow those, we encourage them. If a decoy runner blocks a tackler, then he gets pinged for obstruction but he doesn't if there's no tackler. If I'm honest gents, I can't see the difference.

 

[RobLev]

Originally Posted by davidgh
... THe players forming a wall whether forward or backward facing are surely standing stationary in front of the ball, with the specific objective of <strike>obstructing</strike> the oppo, both visually and physically.

Corrected

Why are they lining up in front of the penalty taker if it's not to obstruct the opposition's view or access?

 

[leaguerefaus]

Dixie - so rude - not normally like you - getting grumpy?

Nobody said anything about a ruck, surely a ruck forms around the ball and disperses once the ball is out.

THe players forming a wall whether forward or backward facing are surely standing stationary in front of the ball, with the specific objective of obstructing the oppo, both visually and physically.

Offside
Obstruction
possibly even unsportsmanlike!

you clearly have a different view, but please do avoid abuse, I haven't seen it on here before!

Rude? Abusive? I see nothing of the sort.

I'd recommend avoiding Australia(ns) if you think what Dixie said is abusive...

 

[Taff]

Why are they lining up in front of the penalty taker if it's not to obstruct the opposition's view or access?

Hang about - who mentioned a Penalty? All this is happening in open play. They can't form a wall in front of the player taking a PK because 21.4(h) says they have to be behind the kicker when the kick is taken.

21.4(h) (h) Behind the ball. All the kicker’s team at a penalty or free kick must be behind the ball until it has been kicked, except the placer for a place kick.

Easily managed, if someone does form a wall in front of the kicker; just say "Behind the kicker please boys." Job done, but in open play, crack on IMO .... provided they don't physically obstruct an opponent.

 

[crossref]

Ok, what do you want to chat about?

about how to maange this sort of 'wall' move, specifically at U12 , u13 level. Many of the comments here have backed up their thinknig with examples from adult (even international) rugby, which is different.

who has actually seen/refereed this at U12/U13 ? what did the referee do ? how was it handled, how should it be?

 

[Dixie]

Dixie - so rude - not normally like you - getting grumpy?

Nobody said anything about a ruck, surely a ruck forms around the ball and disperses once the ball is out.

THe players forming a wall whether forward or backward facing are surely standing stationary in front of the ball, with the specific objective of obstructing the oppo, both visually and physically.

Offside
Obstruction
possibly even unsportsmanlike!

you clearly have a different view, but please do avoid abuse, I haven't seen it on here before!

Mea culpa. I intended to be sharp, but not rude. I'm sorry I got the tone wrong, and assure you it was not personal.

 

[Dan_A]

I referee u12s and have never come across this. I also haven't seen any specific guidance on it, but then I don't necessarily get all the secret emails.

Having read the thread I would probably allow play on but if a defender advances and makes contact with someone in the wall who isn't the ball carrier, I would PK the attacking team for obstruction.

And if I was coaching a team and saw this against us I would have my biggest forward run very hard into/through the wall and see waht the ref did!

And if I was coaching the team I would instruct my biggest forward to

 

[winchesterref]

It isn't hard this one...

A single ball carrier turns his back on an opponent. Play on.
A ball carrier with a player at either side turns his back, play on.
A ball carrier and 2 players all facing away, in a line at each other's side. Play on.
A ball carrier facing away with 2 team mates between them (BC) and opposition, ping if opposition are obstructed (I.e. Attempting to play the BC) or manage it to avoid an unfair advantage - similar to maul set up, "use the ball" or call the offside players away.

If the ball is passed to the wall, and passed to runners behind (moving forwards), then provided they don't interfere with opposition physically getting to BC, then play on.

To say ping it every time is wrong.

Local CBs may implement different rules (a different discussion), but per LoTG, nothing wrong.

 

[crossref]

.

And if I was coaching a team and saw this against us I would have my biggest forward run very hard into/through the wall and see waht the ref did!

for that to happen, you'll need them to do it twice !

it's the sort of thing you first see at a festival in a knock-out round. You probably won't see it twice in one game

 

[RobLev]

Originally Posted by RobLev
Why are they lining up in front of the penalty taker if it's not to obstruct the opposition's view or access?

Hang about - who mentioned a Penalty? All this is happening in open play. They can't form a wall in front of the player taking a PK because 21.4(h) says they have to be behind the kicker when the kick is taken.

Your point is absolutely correct (so far as it goes); I had it in my head that this was at a restart because I couldn't see how boys of 12 could get organised other than in a dead-ball situation.

But this post didn't answer my substantive point.

 

[RobLev]

I think they've done it to deceive or confuse the opposition,

...by obstructing their view of what is happenign so they can't see where the ball is coming out?

and if they're not careful it can become "obstruction" but it isn't obstruction yet .... until somebody gets obstructed surely. Potential obstruction isn't an offence, but the wall needs to make sure it doesn't create an obstruction.

Are you sure that inviting boys of 12 to play another player without the ball, in the hope that the refereee will agree that that player is obstructing them, is the best way of managing this situation? The wall is clearly in the way of any attempt to get to the ball-carrier; the players in it are very clearly, for a significant period of time, interfering with play.

The definition of obstruction in 10.1(b) does not require contact for obstruction:

(b) Running in front of a ball carrier. A player must not intentionally move or stand in front of a team-mate carrying the ball thereby preventing opponents from tackling the current ball carrier or the opportunity to tackle potential ball carriers when they gain possession.

As for:

As for unsportsmanlike, I can't see the difference between forming a wall and having runners shoot off in different directions, and throwing a dummy pass or a decoy runner. We not only allow those, we encourage them. If a decoy runner blocks a tackler, then he gets pinged for obstruction but he doesn't if there's no tackler. If I'm honest gents, I can't see the difference.

To be honest, I can't see the similarity; one is hiding the ball in plain sight with any physical obstruction incidental, the other is hiding the ball behind a wall, with physical obstruction inevitable.