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Pablo


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Pablo - I don't expect anybody who matters to take any notice of my views. However I am unlikely to change them. I may well stop complaining unless somebody else starts the argument, but I cannot see me ever growing to like the current system.

I note that your arguments in favour also apply to my idea (and the original RFU one) of making the playoffs a separate competition.

Yes, my arguments can be applied with equal validity to your idea of a separate trophy - the key point that I wanted to make was the the final trophy awarded (ie., the playoff one) needs to be seen and marketed as the greater prize... otherwise it becomes a meaningless footnote to the season, rather than a great climax. By all means award a piece of silverware to the team at the top of the table, but don't make that the season's principal goal.

For what it's worth, if the EDF cup really is being done away with (probably no bad thing - the season is congested enough already), I'd like to see the powers that be use the extra space in the calendar to expand the playoffs to 6 teams and use the McIntyre playoff system used in RL. But then, I'm coming from the rare position of favouring the playoffs, so I fully expect everybody to disagree on this one too... :D
 

Dixie


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Doesn't seem much point in freeing up space in a congested season, only to use it again.
 

Pablo


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Doesn't seem much point in freeing up space in a congested season, only to use it again.

The McIntyre system (for six teams) adds two rounds, and only for the top six Premiership sides. Scrapping the EDF cup removes a minimum of three games for all 12 teams involved, and five games for the finalists. Space is still saved.
 

OB..


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Why is the McIntyre 6-team system better than a standard 8-team knockout system? One of the top two teams will only play twice in 4 weeks, which seems to give their supporters less rugby and the club less gate money.
 

OB..


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I don't see how quoting the World Cup is relevant. Obviously that could not be run over a whole season. The alternative of a straight knockout would mean half the teams went home after just one game. The hybrid system works well in this situation.

In the GP we already have a season-long competition which I see as devalued by the artificial sprint finish.
 

Dickie E


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In the GP we already have a season-long competition which I see as devalued by the artificial sprint finish.

OB, its a bit like having a shag with no vinegar stroke - all very cuddly but a bit meandering, know what I mean?

If the S14 comp ran this way the Crusaders with a 12 point lead would have won weeks ago - not much fun for anyone after that.

Maybe its an English thing.
 

Pablo


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Why is the McIntyre 6-team system better than a standard 8-team knockout system? One of the top two teams will only play twice in 4 weeks, which seems to give their supporters less rugby and the club less gate money.

It is not inherently better - I just like the idea of the safety net eliminator as a reward for the higher placed teams. I also think that taking 8 teams into the playoffs from a 12-team league is too high a percentage - the playoffs should be difficult to reach and a reward for consistency, not a second bite at rescuing a losing season.

Good point about the financials though. Maybe leaving it as a top four straight knockout is preferable.
 

OB..


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OB, its a bit like having a shag with no vinegar stroke - all very cuddly but a bit meandering, know what I mean?
Amusing but irrelevant.

If the S14 comp ran this way the Crusaders with a 12 point lead would have won weeks ago - not much fun for anyone after that.
Nowhere have I advocated dropping the knockout competition at the end.
 

Simon Griffiths


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Pablo, apologies, I meant to refer to the idea that a league should be a cup is delusional, not that someone holding that view is, necessarily, by association, delusional... :confused:

I'm interested what your response to my reasoned argument that the NHL is not a relevent comparison would be though...

The problem with a system that excludes the top teams from the first round of any play-off system (aside from the financial aspects OB has mentioned) is that the team that has earned an advantage available (such as home draws) loses momentum.

It is interesting to consider how to make the play-offs the 'main' prize at the same time as bringing back some recognition for the league toppers (winners). I see the main problem is how the fans view it, and for the forseeable future, I imagine they will be seen as an 'add-on', simply conceived to make more money... The teams may well take it seriously if it is separate from the league given a large enough prize pot, but will it change the perception of the fans?
 

oxped


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The GP is a standard league where you play each team home and away, whereas the NHL/NBA/MLB etc are not. You play each team a different nuimber of times depending on which conference or division they are in. It is therefore not equal and the playoffs represent a non-perfect way of evening this out.

I think the current system is understandable, trying to even things out after the international absences (which is only going to get worse next year), but it is not perfect. I would not bet against a Tigers v Wasps final, which would be very tough on Bath and Glos who have been the consistently better sides over the year.
 

Ian_Cook


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Prior to the introduction of the EIGHT team McIntyre system into the NRL, they used a modified Page-McIntyre FIVE team playoff series;

First weekend
Match A Rank 4 v Rank 5...........Elimination Final (loser is goneburger)
Match B Rank 2 v Rank 3...........Qualifying Final

Second weekend
Match C Loser B v Winner A.......1st Semi Final (loser is goneburger)
Match D Rank 1 v Winner B........2nd Semi Final (winner into Grand Final)

Midweek
Match E Loser D v Winner C.......Preliminary Final (loser is goneburger)

Third weekend
Match F Winner D v Winner E.....Grand Final

Advantages/disadvantages gained for league finishing positions

Rank 1. a week off + an extra life + only has to win 1 match to make the Grand Final
Rank 2. an extra life + only has to win 2 matches to make the Grand Final
Rank 3. an extra life + only has to win 2 matches to make the Grand Final
Rank 4. no extra lives and has to win 3 matches to make the Grand Final
Rank 5. no extra lives and has to win 3 matches to make the Grand Final

This system worked very well and, other than money, I cannot see why it was ever changed.
 
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Pablo


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Pablo, apologies, I meant to refer to the idea that a league should be a cup is delusional, not that someone holding that view is, necessarily, by association, delusional... :confused:

Apology accepted.

I'm interested what your response to my reasoned argument that the NHL is not a relevent comparison would be though...

Well, it's not directly relevant - I was merely commenting on my liking of the 7 game series used in the Stanley Cup. However, it's not just the US non-standard leagues that use playoffs, it's also perfectly standard leagues like NRL and Super League. The advantage playoffs bring to the GP is in making certain that the championship is decided by sides with their full complement of international players - in theory improving the quality of the match, and in part making up for the different numbers of players teams will have lost to the AIs/6N/RWC throughout the season.

The problem with a system that excludes the top teams from the first round of any play-off system (aside from the financial aspects OB has mentioned) is that the team that has earned an advantage available (such as home draws) loses momentum.

Well, sort of. (See Ian's post above) Clearly the system can't give teams too long a break, for just the reason you not - in 2003 Gloucester hadn't played a competitive game of rugby for three weeks before the final and were duly pasted by Wasps because they lost so much momentum. But the NRL system just gives teams one weekend off, no more, which ought be a welcome rest at the end of a season, rather than a momentum killer. However, the trade-off of a McIntyre-type system is that any lost momentum is compensated for by the "extra life" Ian describes above.

It is interesting to consider how to make the play-offs the 'main' prize at the same time as bringing back some recognition for the league toppers (winners). I see the main problem is how the fans view it, and for the forseeable future, I imagine they will be seen as an 'add-on', simply conceived to make more money... The teams may well take it seriously if it is separate from the league given a large enough prize pot, but will it change the perception of the fans?

It seems from this that (assuming the playoffs are here to stay, regardless of your feelings about that) you agree with me that the playoffs' validity is contingent on the playoff trophy becoming the ultimate prize, rather than the table-topper. I would suggest that the prize pot you mention is key to effecting this - if the teams are seen to play harder for this prize than the table-topper trophy, then I think the players' attitude will filter down to the fans... who will then begin to desire the playoff win over the table-topper win (if they can't have both, of course! :wink:). And in this respect, the NHL actually becomes relevant - the President's Trophy is awarded to the team with the most league points at the end of the regular season (this year's winners: Detroit, who currently hold a 3 game lead in the Western finals). But ask the players which of the President's Trophy or the Stanley Cup they would prefer to win if they could only have one, and they will all answer in favour of the Stanley Cup without hesitation or exception. And this attitude is reflected in that of the fans. So there's the solution - get the players, coaches and team managers to care more about the playoff win, and I think you would see most fans soon follow suit.

The way to get the teams and players to care more? Money, most probably...
 

Toby Warren


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This system worked very well and, other than money, I cannot see why it was ever changed.

Bit like changing the existing laws to ELVs! - sorry couldn't contain myself and not make the cheap shot.
 

Ian_Cook


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Bit like changing the existing laws to ELVs! - sorry couldn't contain myself and not make the cheap shot.

I did wonder when I wrote it whether I was leaving myself open to some smart-arsed remark like that :D
 

OB..


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I don't see why either of the two has to be made pre-eminent. Make them both important and see what happens.
 

Ian_Cook


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I don't see why either of the two has to be made pre-eminent. Make them both important and see what happens.

Referring to Lizban's post or Pablo's post

:confused:
 

PeterH


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I personally thing the playoffs make more money for successful clubs.. great - invest and reap rewards..
I also think the league winner should get the minor prem cup - and the playoff winner the grand final cup.. there is an incentive to be other than 2nd then...
 
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