Three

[Simon Griffiths]

That's the number of Premiership titles that Gloucester would now have won in the last six years had it not been for the stupid play-offs (before anyone says anything, I've held this opinion since the start of the season of their inception).

Let's compare that to: one for Leicester, one for Sale and one for Bath (a team which I have supported once, and once only - in their Premiership final). Yep, under the old, league system, that works out at, zero for Wasps... :wow:

Surely the point of a league is that, it is, err, a league... :chin:

As one Bath supporter put it to me as we waited for the train yesterday, they've turned the league into a knock-out cup and added a league to the knock-out cup... :clap:

Anyway, I have managed to postpone my sailing trip to Lisbon by a day so that I may attend what will, hopefully, be Gloucester's eventual Premiership winning victory (hopefully following a match against Leicester that is equally as immense as the Bath match was).

To quote Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times (regarding the ELVs):

watch a replay of real and titanic rugby as staged at Kingsholm yesterday, and contrast it with the quite dreadful, jacked-up rubbish beamed up from the Super 14 this weekend

Also quite liked (referenced solely to the second half):

They (Bath) decided to switch to a kicking game on the understandable grounds that to pass the ball wide left you in danger of being smashed into the middle of next week.

 

[Dixie]

Surely the point of a league is that, it is, err, a league... :chin:

As one Bath supporter put it to me as we waited for the train yesterday, they've turned the league into a knock-out cup and added a league to the knock-out cup... :clap:

You're out of touch, Simon. I offer you the Champions' League; The Chamionship; pretty much all other pro footie.

You must remember this is sporting entertainment business, with the emphasis on entertainment and business. I wonder if the Glaws board would rather lose the playoff final, or curtail the competition today with a trophy?

Tough on you as a Glaws fan, though, having to play second fiddle to the more accomplished cup sides. On the plus side, it evens out the inequalities involved in having premiership weekends when a side's better players are on international duty.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

I see where you're coming from Dixie, and sadly we're now - as a sport - reliant on this Sports Entertainment (Trademark:WWE) to keep the sport going as an elite one, but I definitely see where SG is coming from.

The idea of a league is to pit so many teams against each other in order to see who the best is. Very similar to a cup competition. But in a league, the most consistent team wins. Sure, you may get season long injuries which may distort the progress of the 'best' team, but if you get that same injury in a cup competition, you have little time to adapt and you run the risk of being knocked out.

Don't get me wrong, the two different formats have their own merits, but a League needs to be a League throughout in order for it to fulfil its intentions, and similarly for a Cup competition.

 

[Phil E]

Simon

You seem to be confusing rugby as a sport, with rugby as a business.

Kerrrrching.





Anyway, Wasps will meet Leicester in the final, no yokels allowed :wink:

 

[OB..]

That's the number of Premiership titles that Gloucester would now have won in the last six years had it not been for the stupid play-offs (before anyone says anything, I've held this opinion since the start of the season of their inception).

I endorse this view, and I am NOT a Gloucester supporter. I actually tend to support Wasps, but I went to one final in order to support Gloucester against Wasps (didn't work!).

In the first year of the system, the knockout phase was a separate trophy. That makes sense. Deciding a marathon by making the top four come back for a 100m sprint he next day is moronic. In entertainment terms, having separate trophies is just as good, and has the added merit of being fair.

I also reject the argument that "everybody knows the rules". That would also hold true even if they played tiddlywinks for the title. Knowing the rules does not make them sensible.

 

[Phil E]

That would also hold true even if they played tiddlywinks for the title.QUOTE]

Are you advocating this as an alternative? :biggrin:


You all seem to be missing the point:
playoffs = more games
more games = more punters
more punters = more money
money makes the world go round
"professional" rugby is a business

(this doesnt mean I agree with it, but its the reason it happens)

 

[SimonSmith]

Phil - I think everyone here is intelligent enough to get the business model, thanks all the same.

Doesn't mean that we have to like it or agree with it.

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Dixie: Champions League = Heineken Cup i.e. we've already got one, don't need another thank you very much (and has always been groups into knock-out, not a league).

Championship - don't they have a play-off to decide the last promotee - the team that tops the Championship table wins the Championship, the team that tops the football Premiership wins the Premiership.

Yes injuries and call-ups take their toll on sides through a league. A league isn't about who's got the best starting 15 - Gloucester have been so consistent over the last few seasons because they've developed a well rounded squad. We have missed key players just like the other teams, at the RWC and 6N, it's just they weren't big name players that got all the coverage. And we've definitely had a considerable share of injuries (long and short term) to key players.

 

[Phil E]

Phil - I think everyone here is intelligent enough to get the business model, thanks all the same.

Thats a pretty BIG assumption, there's ex-players, Australians, and even Americans!!!

 

[OB..]

You all seem to be missing the point:
playoffs = more games
more games = more punters
more punters = more money
money makes the world go round
"professional" rugby is a business

No. You are missing my point.

It is perfectly possible (and MUCH more sensible) to treat the playoffs as a separate competition from the league, and award separate trophies. Same number of games. Same competition for places in the League, even for those who can no longer win it.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

I agree with OB - two chances to walk off with silverware, and the same chance to cash in from the Finals. Better yet, same amount of games and so no complaints about extending the season even more.

 

[Simon Thomas]

OB - a very sensible suggestion indeed and with two trophies to play for more spectator involvement, x % up on gates and so more revenue, etc

 

[Pablo]

It is perfectly possible (and MUCH more sensible) to treat the playoffs as a separate competition from the league, and award separate trophies. Same number of games. Same competition for places in the League, even for those who can no longer win it.

Fine, BUT in order for this to actually work financially and draw the crowds, the playoff trophy needs to be seen as the bigger prize. This is the case in sports with a long tradition of playoffs (witness: Super League, Stanley Cup, World Series, Super Bowl, NBA, NRL, etc.) and hence these events are big crowd-pullers. For example: finishing top of the NRL table at the end of the regular season is referred to as a "minor premiership" - the key word is minor, the implication being that a bigger prize is to be had at the end of the knock-out post-season. I'm not sure that such a mentality exists yet in English rugby, as evidenced by Simon G's statement (and interminable drivel on the BBC 606 boards, Planet Rugby and others) that "Gloucester are champions". Unless the league organisers successfully engender that mentality, they risk the playoff trophy being seen as valueless, and punters staying at home.

I make no disguise nor apology of the fact that I am in favour of the playoffs. Yes, I am a Wasps fan, and Wasps have benefitted under the new structure, in no small part due to the coaching influence of Warren Gatland, a man who learnt his trade in the playoff-structured NPC and knew what it took to peak at the right time. Independent of my Wasps affiliation, I am still a fan of the playoffs, and am a fan of many other sports that have a playoff system. I particuarly like the NHL's best-of-7 series playoffs, but that is simply too many games for rugby. I can trot out the same old arguments: it makes for a great season finale, it prevents runaway leaders rendering the league boring a month before the end of the season, it corrects for teams who lose large numbers of players to the national sides during the Autumn Internationals/6 Nations, and blah, blah, blah. Equally, the same old arguments will get tossed back: consistency, marathon not a sprint, and blah, blah, blah. And round and round in circles we will go. Tedious. What it comes down to is: you either like the playoffs, or you don't. I like them and I hope they stay.

Incidentally, I find it curious that nobody comments on the promotion playoffs in soccer as being a stupid, mercenary idea. If "a league is a league", why does nobody find it strange that the third promotion spot is not automatically handed to the team that finishes third in the table? I wonder if it's because they have been in place for over 20 years and everybody's used to them now? Will English rugby fans still be debating whether the Premiership playoffs are a good or bad idea in 2022? I suspect not...

 

[Simon Griffiths]

I'm afraid that comparisons with NHL (or MLB or NFL for that matter) are not relevent. They have an entirely different set up. When you have, as they do in MLB, two different leagues, comprised of three divisions in each (East, Central and West), then you have to have a method of funnelling everyone into a common champion decider.

I am afraid that no-one will be able to convince me otherwise, a league is a league, a cup is a cup. I make 'no disguise or apology' for the fact that I think that people who think otherwise are slightly delusional.

PS. I never said that Gloucester were champions, merely that they would have been under the previous structure (interestingly, let's not forget that Gloucester are one time Zurich Champions :wink: , under the previous system).

 

[SimonSmith]

Pablo - I do disagree with the promotion system in soccer. It's finance at immoral expense.

 

[OB..]

Pablo - I don't expect anybody who matters to take any notice of my views. However I am unlikely to change them. I may well stop complaining unless somebody else starts the argument, but I cannot see me ever growing to like the current system.

I note that your arguments in favour also apply to my idea (and the original RFU one) of making the playoffs a separate competition.

 

[Dickie E]

I make 'no disguise or apology' for the fact that I think that people who think otherwise are slightly delusional.

Simon, would you take the view that the World Cup should be a round robin type tournament with the winner being the accumulator of the most points?

 

[Pablo]

I make 'no disguise or apology' for the fact that I think that people who think otherwise are slightly delusional.

Why? Because my opinion differs from yours? If you are unable to put together a compelling argument without resorting to childish insults, then this conversation is over. I expect better from this forum and its members - if I wanted petty name-calling, I would go to Planet Rugby.

 

[rodeneal]

Moving slightly away from this entertaining discussion - I have tickets for the final. Is any one else going?

 

[Pablo]

Pablo - I do disagree with the promotion system in soccer. It's finance at immoral expense.

I'm not sure I would use quite such strong language, but in part I agree. I understand the argument that the team that finished third should simply be handed third spot. The playoffs were a clever system of reducing the top flight league when they were first used (for those unaware, they were originally a four team tournament between places 3,4 & 5 in the lower division and the team finishing one spot above relegation in the upper division) , but have obviously outlived that to become the standard method of awarding the final promotion place.

They are a money-making venture, of course, but I think there are benefits to the system as well, the main one being that the playoffs ensure that even mid-table sides still have a motivation to play hard even when the top spots are out of reach at the tail end of the season. It keeps fans interested, it keeps games competitive and meaningful. I see no harm in that.