Time to touch down

Jarrod Burton


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Hi Guys,

I had a very lopsided game today, 111-10, legs are shattered.

One question - when a player misses a penalty kick at goal and the defender catches the ball, how long to they have to ground it to get the dropout option. I've always thought it was pretty much immediately but now I'm not so sure.
 

Ian_Cook


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Hi Guys,

I had a very lopsided game today, 111-10, legs are shattered.

One question - when a player misses a penalty kick at goal and the defender catches the ball, how long to they have to ground it to get the dropout option. I've always thought it was pretty much immediately but now I'm not so sure.

You are getting your Laws mixed up there I think Jarrod. There isn't any time limit as such after a missed PK, a player is allowed to look around and weigh up what they want to do, and if they touch the ball down, the 22DO is the only option.

What you are thinking of when the ball goes into in-goal from a kick off or a restart kick, or a drop-out

[LAWS]LAW 13 - KICK OFF AND RESTART KICKS[/LAWS]
[LAWS]13.9 BALL GOES INTO THE IN-GOAL

(b) If the opposing team grounds the ball, or if they make it dead, or if the ball becomes dead
by going into touch-in-goal, or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
• To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball, or
• To have the other team kick off again.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.


(d) If the ball does not travel ten metres and ends up in the kicking team’s in-goal and:
• it is made dead by a defending player, or
• the ball goes into touch in goal, or
• lands on or over the dead ball line;
a 5-metre scrum is awarded and the attacking team throw in. [/LAWS]
[LAWS]13.15 DROP-OUT GOES INTO THE OPPONENTS’ IN-GOAL

(a) If the ball is kicked into the opponents’ in-goal without having touched or been touched by a
player, the opposing team has three choices:
• To ground the ball, or
• To make it dead, or
• To play on.

(b) If the opposing team grounds the ball, or makes it dead, or if the ball becomes dead by
going into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
• To have a scrum formed at the centre of the 22-metre line from where the kick was taken
and they throw in the ball, or
• To have the other team drop-out again.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.
[/LAWS]
 
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ChrisR

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Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.
 

OB..


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Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.
Not really practical. By the time the referee decides a reminder is needed, the player has already delayed.
 

Browner

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Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.

Agree, given that there will be wide referee variances on 'without delay' ( as there invariably is with immediately) some kinda warning makes sense, as long as its not "Use It" cos that will no doubt be taken to mean they have 5s to dilly dally .
 

crossref


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And after a ko they only need to act without delay if they want the scrum back / kick again option. If they delay, and then touch down, they still get the 22m drop out
 

ChrisR

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Not really practical. By the time the referee decides a reminder is needed, the player has already delayed.

... and now we start a discussion as to the difference between "immediately" and "without delay".

I think there is a moment when the player picks up the ball instead of grounding it that a call of "Ground it or play on" is appropriate.

If the law said "immediately" then I would say that you are correct and I would expect the receiving player to simply ground it and for him to pick it up he has "played on".
 

Dickie E


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What would yo do in this situation:

Blue kicks off and ball rolls into Red in-goal. Red player stops the ball with his foot. Another Red player, coming from an onside position, dives on and grounds the ball.

Restart?
 

crossref


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Dickie E:301002 said:
What would yo do in this situation:

Blue kicks off and ball rolls into Red in-goal. Red player stops the ball with his foot. Another Red player, coming from an onside position, dives on and grounds the ball.

Restart?

Dropout
 

Ian_Cook


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I agree, because "If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on
."

By stopping the ball with his foot, he has done an action other than grounding the ball.

(I think I know what the counter to that might be, but I'm going to keep my powder dry for now)
 

ChrisR

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... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.
 

Pinky


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... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.

For me 1 is making the ball dead without delay, so that is OK, and scrum of kick option remains. Similarly I would allow a stop with a foot and then bend down to ground it to mean that the options are on, but I think I would draw the line at another player actually grounding it. I would also allow eg a catcher of the ball to be told to ground it the time to follow the instruction and not consider that a delay.
 

crossref


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Marauder:301007 said:
... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.

For those two examples I agree.
 

OB..


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... and now we start a discussion as to the difference between "immediately" and "without delay".
I don't. I go back to my view that we cannot forensically dissect the words. Since WR did not bother to define a distinction, I think it best not to infer one. We have no basis for doing so.

I think there is a moment when the player picks up the ball instead of grounding it that a call of "Ground it or play on" is appropriate.
Not my view.

If the law said "immediately" then I would say that you are correct and I would expect the receiving player to simply ground it and for him to pick it up he has "played on".
I think that is a common view. "There is no point in picking the ball up if you want the option, so don't do it" is what I was always told. You certainly don't want to risk a knock-on.

Of course if it bounces up you may have to catch it. Option if you ground it immediately without looking up.
 

ChrisR

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The requirement to act "without delay" was, to my mind, included in the laws to prevent some smart ass from waltzing around in goal with the ball in hand until threatened by an opponent then grounding the ball and claiming the scrum center.

No need to be a pedant.
 

Pegleg

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If the player passes or runs / walks with the ball then "without delay" has gone If he stands still he might get a more "lenient" interpretation.

If a second player touches down? I doubt that is immediate.
 

ChrisR

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Pegleg, the law doesn't require 'immediate', just 'without delay'.

Now, OB doesn't see a difference but I do.
 

OB..


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Pegleg, the law doesn't require 'immediate', just 'without delay'.

Now, OB doesn't see a difference but I do.
Why? It just complicates matters, particularly since AFAIK there is no general agreement on what the difference might be.

Maybe you have in mind a difference that you think is a good idea, but unless referees both know and agree, I don't see that it helps.
 
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