Time wasting

Padster


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it could have been dealt with differently (ie ignored) but the referee had been quite firm throughout and did make it clear.
 

Phil E


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Why would a referee put the spotlight on himself like that.

Hard to decide without seeing the rest of the match and the pattern of warnings.
 

crossref


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I have never penalised anyone for timewasting. I make it clear the clock is off and will remain stopped until they restart . So there is no point, and no gain in it.

Could he have done that?

I prefer that .. but I guess that approach is harder with a timekeeper and stadium clock.
 

chbg


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What was good is that, after the event, Rayal explained his reasons only to the, presumably stand-in, captain. Nothing would have been gained trying to explain it to the player (10), who was patently too upset to react favourably.

That close to the end of time, players shouldn't take risks! But the snippet never shows how long between putting time on and the player going to kick, or what warnings may have been given - I suggest that a final (5 sec?) warning would be sensible.
 

chbg


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And an All Blacks highlight video: : the commentator is saying (at 17:09) "the Australians being given a bit of a hurry-up here" and Gold 10 appears to ignore and continue to discuss whether he should kick it out or not.

 

Rich_NL

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The ref stopped the clock to tell the kicker to hurry up. In that situation, I'd kick the ball within a couple of seconds of time on, not ponder for ten...

That said, given the noise in the stadium and that the ref appeared to be walking away, it may not have been clear that time was on? I'm reminded of Pascal Gauzere in ENG-WAL a couple of years ago - a lot going on, and the communication got muddied maybe?
 

leaguerefaus


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Seems like extremely poor game management.

Call time off, tell him to get a move on, and then don't start time again until he kicks it.

Whether or not the Australian player could have handled it better, the referee caused a scene where one need not be caused.
 

Dickie E


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I prefer that .. but I guess that approach is harder with a timekeeper and stadium clock.
Why? The timekeeper has ears on the ref.

As best as I can measure it, there was 10 seconds between the time on and whistle for scrum and there appeared to be 1 verbal hurry up which may have been missed in the stadium noise.

IMO the ref was technically correct as Gold were intentionally delaying the kick but to blow for the scrum as the kicker was in the action of kicking smacks of gallic arrogance. I guess we're still paying for cancelling their dodgy submarine contract. c'est la vie
 

Jarrod Burton


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IMO the ref was technically correct as Gold were intentionally delaying the kick but to blow for the scrum as the kicker was in the action of kicking smacks of gallic arrogance. I guess we're still paying for cancelling their dodgy submarine contract. c'est la vie
Scomo's still causing problems even from the Backbenches.
 

Jarrod Burton


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I thought it was terrible game management even if technically correct. The Wallabies had just won a PK while under a heavy defensive maul.

I find it incredible that if the roles were reversed and the AB elected to kick for points, they could run 60 seconds off the clock in preparing for a shot and time waste the game into finishing but the same time isn't given to a kick for touch. I've always thought that 60 seconds to kick a PK is excessive and it should be preferably 30-45 seconds from time of election to kick.
 

SimonSmith


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Some background is that when the Wallabies were down to 13 - which is a separate conversation in its own right - he had to give them a hurry up as well. This wasn't a bolt out of the blue.

Foley gambled, and lost. I was watching it live, with a sense of foreboding, much as Foley's mate behind him, who on one replay angle, you can clearly see screaming at him to kick the ball. If your mate is screaming at you, you are very clearly right on, or over, the line. I heard the warnings (there were more than one), and when there was still no motion to kick told my wife "he's fucked this" just as she asked me about "when does it become delay of game?".

Australia displayed incredible guts to get it back to where it was. The first half was horrendous to watch, the second a lot more interesting. I mean, I've adopted the Brave Boys in Gold while I'm over here, and my sympathetic assessment is: they fucked it. Lucky to have 15 on the field for the second half - and I think Swain may be heading to the Headmaster's Office to explain his citing. Jake Gordon sealing his international fate by just being bad. There was at least one ruck turnover because he was not paying attention at the back with a clear ball win. The Wallabies were noticeably better and zippier when Nic White came on, and I'm not that big a Nic White fan. Missed deadball kicks to touch, no pressure on AB kicks - I meanm literally, they let him run three yards forward and two sideways to get a better angle, and stood still. And the discipline...oh, the disciplie. I thought MR was tighter than, say, Ben O'Keefe, but I don't think there's a lot of room for complaint on him, as he was consistent.

Deep inside that squad there's a making of a good team. There's a lack of a Martin Johnson-type forward, and I think Hooper being absent is costing in the leadership stakes. Throw in a decent 10, or a 10 who can grow into the role, and they might be a competitive team. But they're one more injury away from the kind of team that Scotland would love to meet - and that's not a compliment.
 

Jarrod Burton


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Some background is that when the Wallabies were down to 13 - which is a separate conversation in its own right - he had to give them a hurry up as well. This wasn't a bolt out of the blue.
Every team wastes a bit of time when on a YC, the All Blacks have done it for years too.

My word to described the refereeing last night would be confused and confusing. Several times the wallabies got hands on while not holding their weight and were rewarded with the ball, I recall Reynard making a comment when Swain got his card that the player being injured had an affect on the card but late in the match (just before the final Aus try from memory) an AB trucked into a ruck in a clear out, hit near the knee of the Aus player who got up limping but was never reviewed. Finally there was a clear lift, turn and dump in the second half which Reyard said was PK only when legs went past the horizontal and the player got dropped from stomach height.

The final call of the match was a gotcha and made the match about refereeing/the referee rather than let the game shine.
 

shebeen

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Every team wastes a bit of time when on a YC, the All Blacks have done it for years too.

My word to described the refereeing last night would be confused and confusing.

The final call of the match was a gotcha and made the match about refereeing/the referee rather than let the game shine.
Gold10 was in the action of kicking when Raynal blew, would anyone have even noticed it if he let it go*? Was an incredible game of rugby, and now we're left discussing the referee's decision.

full running of the final minutes
As a comparison:
77 min, NZ get a penalty, Black10 chasing the game takes an incredibly quick 15 seconds on the clock to kick to touch
79mins, Aus get the penalty, Gold10 takes an adjudicated slow 38 seconds to kick to touch.

Amazing this call was made, given the circumstances, and it genuinely seems that Gold10 thought time was off. Practically speaking an extra 15seconds of it made absolutely no difference, even though the MO was asking for him to hurry up. In the 80th minute the final play was going to be a lineout throw that would be the contest for the result with the buzzer gone.

*swings and roundabouts, Aus got the call the other way when they took an incredibly long time to land this match winner 12 months ago
 

Marc Wakeham


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Every team wastes a bit of time when on a YC, the All Blacks have done it for years too.

My word to described the refereeing last night would be confused and confusing. Several times the wallabies got hands on while not holding their weight and were rewarded with the ball, I recall Reynard making a comment when Swain got his card that the player being injured had an affect on the card but late in the match (just before the final Aus try from memory) an AB trucked into a ruck in a clear out, hit near the knee of the Aus player who got up limping but was never reviewed. Finally there was a clear lift, turn and dump in the second half which Reyard said was PK only when legs went past the horizontal and the player got dropped from stomach height.

The final call of the match was a gotcha and made the match about refereeing/the referee rather than let the game shine.
I think Simon's post was for context. That is the referee already judged that Australia were taking the piss. When the referee does that. Why not listen?
Was the referee right? well the law book says he is the sole judge so when he telly you you're wasting time then you're pretty darm stupid not to listen.

That said I feel he could have handled it differently.
 

crossref


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I have a feeling I have seen an elite ref - in similar circumstances - say that the clock is not going back on until the lineout throw.

That might be a but dubious technically, but feels appropriate.
 

Jarrod Burton


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I have a feeling I have seen an elite ref - in similar circumstances - say that the clock is not going back on until the lineout throw.

That might be a but dubious technically, but feels appropriate.
Dangerous comment to make - what if teh kick fails to reach touch, the ball is returned, a try score and time isn't blown on?
 

BikingBud


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Gold10 was in the action of kicking when Raynal blew, would anyone have even noticed it if he let it go*? Was an incredible game of rugby, and now we're left discussing the referee's decision.

full running of the final minutes
As a comparison:
77 min, NZ get a penalty, Black10 chasing the game takes an incredibly quick 15 seconds on the clock to kick to touch
79mins, Aus get the penalty, Gold10 takes an adjudicated slow 38 seconds to kick to touch.

Amazing this call was made, given the circumstances, and it genuinely seems that Gold10 thought time was off. Practically speaking an extra 15seconds of it made absolutely no difference, even though the MO was asking for him to hurry up. In the 80th minute the final play was going to be a lineout throw that would be the contest for the result with the buzzer gone.

*swings and roundabouts, Aus got the call the other way when they took an incredibly long time to land this match winner 12 months ago
But are they not 2 differing scenarios:

Law 20 Penalty and Free Kick - Taking a penalty or free-kick

"5. A penalty or free-kick must be taken without delay."

Law 8 - Scoring - Penalty goal

"21. The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded."

Penalty was awarded to Aus @ 78:26 game time and free kick to ABs @ 79:04 between those markers, nearly 40 secs + "time off" time, the referee said, "play", "we play", "time off", not clear, "we play now", "time on" we see the long shot and time is just ticking over to 79 mins, at least 2 more prompts and then whistle for FK.

Communication is a bilateral process and if people don't listen then is that the ref's issue? If you advise a player is offside and the transgressor doesn't retire they get pinged, You don't accept sorry mate I didn't hear you. From the body language and prompts the other Aus players understood the situation.

Gamesmanship or referee management, as some may wish to call it, by a team captain requires a level of effective intelligence. A leader, not only the captain, should be able to adjust and adapt to the referee and the way in which the laws are being applied, see England v Italy "I am a referee not a rugby coach" for one of the worst (best) examples.

It would have been easy to take the kick and "absorb" time elsewhere as we see it is now deemed acceptable to kick to touch and then many seconds of delay while the team throwing in:
  • form a huddle some way from the lineout mark
  • decide the call,
  • hooker gets ball,
  • wipes ball,
  • decides doesn't like that ball
  • wants another one,
  • prop comes in to tell the hooker the call,
  • line out gets formed
  • hooker moves to align closer to his own team
  • opponents follow
  • throwing in team look at ref and complain about the gap being closed
  • ref resets gap and steps away
  • line out dances the hokey cokey, as players leave the line and rejoin in a differing position
  • and eventually the ball gets thrown in:sleep:
Notwithstanding this decision and the focus on the last few minutes that "decided" the final score, and draws all the discussion, how did Australia allow the ABs to score the other 34 points?

Better decision making, skill, scrummaging, tackling, positioning etc by the Wallabies may have prevented any or all of those points being accrued.

They were also on a penalty advantage for offside when the try was scored.

To my mind not too much to complain about.
 

didds

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I find it incredible that if the roles were reversed and the AB elected to kick for points, they could run 60 seconds off the clock in preparing for a shot and time waste the game into finishing but the same time isn't given to a kick for touch. I've always thought that 60 seconds to kick a PK is excessive and it should be preferably 30-45 seconds from time of election to kick.
You'd have to ask the law makers about that.
Until such time as they deem fit to change it, the laws give 60 seconds for a PK, even if its clear that 59 seconds of it are time wasting, and no specific time allowance for kicks from hand.

End of.

didds
 
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