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Taffy


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If a player takes another player off their feet in a tackle, is it ALWAYS a penalty offence, unless they return them to their feet?
 

OB..


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If a player takes another player off their feet in a tackle, is it ALWAYS a penalty offence, unless they return them to their feet?
No.

Crucial to the classic tip tackle is initially LIFTING the player up, usually from a more or less stationary position. A hard driving tackle might well take a player off his feet and land him on his back, but is not illegal.
 

FightOrFlight


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For me lifting a player in a tackle doesn't automatically mean a PK. If a player lifts another and lands him shoulders below hips then that is a PK and YC/RC depending on the angle of landing. If it's clean shoulder/neck/head first then it's a RC. If it is shoulders just below hips and more mid/upper back first to ground I may go yellow.....I suppose you know it when you see it.
 

Simon Thomas


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No of course not, many legal tackles head-on, from the side and from the back will involve the tackled players feet off the ground.

Apply standard referee training and your rugby experience to identify dangerous tackles, and for tackles that go beyond the horizontal, apply the IRB/RFU guidelines as told to you by your Society.
 

winchesterref


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Why does the instruction appear to be legs above the horizontal? That has never made sense to me.
 

crossref


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Why does the instruction appear to be legs above the horizontal? That has never made sense to me.

but that isnt' the instruction

LAWS
[LAWS]
(j)
Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play
[/LAWS]

Nothing about above or beyond horizontal.
 

winchesterref


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But it is the clearly worded reasoning when watching on TV "legs lifted past the horizontal". To me that makes little sense, the dangerous part is the torso angle.
 

Taff


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Why does the instruction appear to be legs above the horizontal? That has never made sense to me.
but that isnt' the instruction ... Nothing about above or beyond horizontal.
I'm pretty sure that the wording in the directive specifically mentions "legs above the horizontal". :chin:

It makes perfect sense to me; if you're legs are above the horizontal, you're upside down .. and that usually ends in tears, toys been chucked out of prams and it kicking off big time.
 

winchesterref


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Not necessarily. They can be above horizintal with your torso still upright
 

crossref


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the 2009 memo concerned itself with guidance on when to give a RC or YC.
the defintition it gave of a tip-tackle was current in 2009, later superseded by a new definition in the Laws

n 2007, the IRB Council approved a Laws Designated Members Ruling which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.
At a subsequent IRB High Performance Referee Seminar at Lensbury referees were advised that for these types of tackles they were to start at red card as a sanction and work backwards.
Unfortunately these types of tackles are still being made and the purpose of this memorandum is to emphasize that they must be dealt with severely by referees and all those involved in the off-field disciplinary process.
Attached is a recent decision of the Judicial Officer Jannie Lubbe SC, in which the differences between the application of the red card test by referees and judicial personnel is highlighted.
In our view, this decision correctly highlights that the lifting of players in the tackle and then either forcing or dropping them to the ground is dangerous and must be dealt with severely.
To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the ground:
The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.
Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4 (e)) of the circumstances of the tackle.
 
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