[Assistant Referees] TJ report of abuse - action?

[Zebra1922]

DYCWhat would be your approach if you had a club TJ report abuse from a player? I did not hear it but knew something was going on due to the attitude of the TJ who was engaging with members of the opposing team after a try.

i asked him to let me deal with it and later reported a player had swore at him and called him a liar. At the time I spoke with the captain, asked him to speak to his player and warned if I heard anything I would take action.


After the game I spoke to the TJ who was a former ref, he said he would have YCd on the basis of the TJ report, what do you think? I wary of the penalty/YC route from a club TJ accusation against a player from an opposing team as you could easily end up with a tit fir tat, but also we cannot tolerate abuse of match officials regardless of whether they are a referee, AR or club appointed TJ.

Thoughts?

 

[Christy]

For me .
If club TJ , wants to make a report .
Let him do it ,
Its not something i would get involved in .
Or do i feel as an appointed society referee , feel i need to get involved in with a teams touch judge.

As long as the TJ is not abusing players or calling touch when it clearly isnt .
I would suggest as a ref , i have enough to do ,with out worrying about what i didnt here a player say to a touch judge .

Manage it & walk away

 

[SimonSmith]

TJs are Match Officials and get the same rights that referees do.

I had a club TJ get lamped in a college match in my jurisdiction. I handed down a life ban.

 

[Pinky]

Club TJs as opposed to appointed ARs have a smaller list of things - basically they watch touch and kicks at goal. They may also mark the offside lines eg 5m at scrum and 10m at linout and possibly penalty, but they do not have the right to call in offside or forward pass or foul play like an appointed AR. I think in a case like this, if I, as ref, heard the swearing, I would take action and would probably be a RC. But if not heard, it is difficult to penalise. However it is open to the club of the TJ to make a report against the player and let the disciplinary decide (and that might include a ban)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

DYCWhat would be your approach if you had a club TJ report abuse from a player? I did not hear it but knew something was going on due to the attitude of the TJ who was engaging with members of the opposing team after a try.

i asked him to let me deal with it and later reported a player had swore at him and called him a liar. At the time I spoke with the captain, asked him to speak to his player and warned if I heard anything I would take action.


After the game I spoke to the TJ who was a former ref, he said he would have YCd on the basis of the TJ report, what do you think? I wary of the penalty/YC route from a club TJ accusation against a player from an opposing team as you could easily end up with a tit fir tat, but also we cannot tolerate abuse of match officials regardless of whether they are a referee, AR or club appointed TJ.

Thoughts?

Would he have YCd a player if an oposition player had said (CLAIMED) that he had been sworn at / abused / kicked or whatever during a game? I think the answer is pretty surely NO!

His avenue here is to make a complaint post game to the other club or via the union. He is a TJ NOT an AR he has no right of reporting to you the referee.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

TJs are Match Officials and get the same rights that referees do.

I had a club TJ get lamped in a college match in my jurisdiction. I handed down a life ban.

But that is not the point here. I presume that, in your scenario there was evidence of the club TJ getting lamped. In this case you have an official claiming that something happened. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Dickie E]

i asked him to let me deal with it and later reported a player had swore at him and called him a liar. At the time I spoke with the captain, asked him to speak to his player and warned if I heard anything I would take action.


After the game I spoke to the TJ who was a former ref, he said he would have YCd on the basis of the TJ report, what do you think? I wary of the penalty/YC route from a club TJ accusation against a player from an opposing team as you could easily end up with a tit fir tat, but also we cannot tolerate abuse of match officials regardless of whether they are a referee, AR or club appointed TJ.

Thoughts?

I think the action that you did take was appropriate. I wouldn't have YC'd the player

 

[crossref]

I think this would still be quite a hard one, even if you had heard the player call the TJ a liar

In my experience a small, but significant, proportion of club TJs are liars ...

Unless I was certain the disputed call was correct (which is unlikely, chances are I couldn't be sure either way ) I would be reluctant to give a card

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I think this would still be quite a hard one, even if you had heard the player call the TJ a liar

In my experience a small, but significant, proportion of club TJs are liars ...

Unless I was certain the disputed call was correct (which is unlikely, chances are I couldn't be sure either way ) I would be reluctant to give a card

If I heard it. Then the player is getting a card. Whether a TJ / AR / Ref is a liar or not, is not for the players call. Players do not cll out officials. END OF.

The problem here is whether or not you'd send a player off on the word of a non appointe person. MOore to the point one who is not disinterested in the outcome.

 

[Flish]

I would treat this the same way I would any other claim of abuse / behaviour from or towards the touch line that I had not directly heard, I’d note that it had been reported if asked in any follow up (ie they report it) but I couldn’t act on it as I hadn’t witnessed it directly. Might be worth a chat with captains as well

 

[Taff]

.... After the game I spoke to the TJ who was a former ref, he said he would have YCd on the basis of the TJ report. What do you think?

I suspect that YCing a player just on the basis of a club TJ the possibilities for abuse would be huge.

 

[Blackberry]

A TJ cannot report most things to a ref, including this, so I would not take any on field action on his report alone. If I'd witnessed the abuse, then I reckon I would YC or RC it depending on severity as s/he is a match official...but are TJ's match officials? I reckon some official guidance would be useful here for players and refs alike.

 

[crossref]

but are TJ's match officials? I reckon some official guidance would be useful here for players and refs alike.

I agree - because it works both ways.

If a player calling a TJ a cheat is just as serious as a player calling a AR a cheat ... then it would also seem to follow that a TJ actually cheating is just as serious as an AR cheating...

Well, I have never heard of an AR cheating.. but if I felt an AR appointed by my society really was cheating, I would have to report them and this would be an extraordinarily difficult and important incident, which would cause all sorts of problems for the society, and depending on the finding would likely end the career of one or other of us.


But a TJ cheating ? Is that as serious? I have occasionally over-ruled a TJs call - for instance moving the mark from where he has signalled it when he has clearly been too generous/stingy to one team.
Once or twice I have relieved a TJ of the flag and asked for someone else to do it. (not with an accusation of cheating, but saying I felt he was not paying close enough attention)

I haven't reported them afterwards (should I have done?), if I had reported them I think the likely repsonse would be that I was taking this all too seriously - certainly I wouldn't expect all hell would break loose like it would if a ref accused a colleague.

added context : in my games 90% of the time the TJ is one of the subs, temporarily holding a flag. Sometimes it's a coach or similar. Very occasionally it's a guy from the club who likes to TJ

 

[Taff]

.... If I'd witnessed the abuse, then I reckon I would YC or RC it depending on severity as s/he is a match official...but are TJ's match officials?

I would say yes. According to the lawbook Touch Judges are "officials".

6 Match officials
Every match is under the control of match officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees.

 

[crossref]

I would say yes. According to the lawbook Touch Judges are "officials".

6 Match officials
Every match is under the control of match officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees.

but if the TJ duties are handled by the players themselves, with the flag passing from player to player during the game as replacements are made, are all those players also temporarily officials?

 

[Taff]

but if the TJ duties are handled by the players themselves, with the flag passing from player to player during the game as replacements are made, are all those players also temporarily officials?

I assume the law is there to protect officials no matter who they are.

A TJ can't report Foul Play to the Ref, so I suspect he can't report abuse to the Ref either.

Can a TJ put in a Code of Conduct complaint after the match?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Can a TJ put in a Code of Conduct complaint after the match?

Any club can report an incident to their union. It may be better to talk to the other club first to see if things can be sorted that way first

 

[Zebra1922]

In this instance I think the decision was made not to report. The TJ is an old hand and been involved in the area for many years. Although not happy, I don't think he wanted to take it further after the game.

Going back to the earlier comment about the accuracy of the call which started the initial accusation of abuse, the call was correct. I know as I was in a good position to see, and several home supporters (i.e. not those of the TJs team) also supported the decision. I knew there was some interaction, and I could see the TJ getting involved in players (which I asked him not too) the problem was I did not hear the comments either way, only what was reported to me by the TJ.

Thanks for the comments, it seems the general approach is that we note the comments, talk to captains if appropriate, and ask the TJ is file a complaint via their club should they feel it appropriate. I'll make sure I add that in my response to the TJ if (when!) this happens again in future.

 

[didds]

Surely the bottom line is if you guys ever get to the position whereby you are going to give PKs, PTs and cards based on what a club affiliated non appointed TJ says, that you didn't witness yourself, then its a slippery slope to 7 v 8 and 65-63 scorelines.

didds