TMO v VAR

[Pinky]

but rugby TMOs also have a bank of screens ..... don't they ?

They may well have, I don't know. However they seem to concentrate on showing each angle at a different time, at least to the refs/fans. Based on the BBC, there are 4 refs in the VAR room, and there is supposed to be a feed to the ref on a pitch-side screen, but I have not seen them use that in the few games I have watched. VAR was used in the FA Cup last year, I believe.

 

[TigerCraig]

Based on the BBC, there are 4 refs in the VAR room

Actual footage of soccer VAR's

 

[VM75]

THe number of player pulled to the ground where the VAR systems says there is no penalty suggests that 90%+ figure is make believe. Unless youare no allowed to make rugby tackles on players.

Marc,

I believe the referees are applying materiality to those instances. There are probably 6 holding offences per attack team, and 6 from the defensive team at virtually every corner kick taken. I'm suggesting the referee considers which player was likely to get to the ball [based on it's arrival trajectory or location] and then decides whether he was seriously impeded & prevented from doing so.

Least that's my guess, i've no greater insight, but it seems to make sense, otherwise I can't explain some of the overlooking either.

 

[didds]

radical idea... forget materiality, card everybody that holds at a corner/FK etc. End up with 7 v 8 if necessary. It won;t continue for long

didds

 

[Camquin]

If you tried that in rugby both packs and their 9s would be off after the first scrum

 

[didds]

???

holding the oppo isn;t an offense in rugby scrums (well, for the two FRs anyway). 9's are just bloody petualnt jack russels anyway...

didds

 

[Camquin]

I was not thining of the holding, just the ignoring materiality.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Marc,

I believe the referees are applying materiality to those instances. There are probably 6 holding offences per attack team, and 6 from the defensive team at virtually every corner kick taken. I'm suggesting the referee considers which player was likely to get to the ball [based on it's arrival trajectory or location] and then decides whether he was seriously impeded & prevented from doing so.

Least that's my guess, i've no greater insight, but it seems to make sense, otherwise I can't explain some of the overlooking either.

I am talking players tackled to the ground not just a bit of tit for tat shirt pulling. Sorry any claim of ME is a cop out.

 

[VM75]

I am talking players tackled to the ground not just a bit of tit for tat shirt pulling. Sorry any claim of ME is a cop out.

It's gradually evolved to this state because each minor worsening of holding tugging & pulling has been explained by the pro's as necessary/acceptable defending & the game/media/fans/refs have swallowed that justification.

It's a bit like high tackling in rugby, the pro's gradually took the hits higher & higher until WR had to step in , mainly because the face/head hits were concussing far too many despite protestations of unintentional.

VAR is the (welcome) start of the process of regaining control IMO, once players realise that they might be 'awarded against' post incident through VAR then they might relinquish their grappling, once the risk outweigh's the reward then you'll see a reduction, until then ... it just needs time and continued application to sink in, so for some it may simply never do that !

 

[Marc Wakeham]

One minute you are arguning it is the application of ME and now it is "just accepted practice". But's let's assume the second is now true, my point stands. VAR is behind the TMO in "value" and a World Cup was not the best place for such an experiment. THe "accptence" of illegal play has been show up for what it is rather than getting the right calls (surely the point of having VAR is to get the right calls? No??).

 

[L'irlandais]

This South American soccer referee looked like he meant to back up his yellow card decision

Unfortunately the video evidence may have worked against him. 2015 incident/

 

[Phil E]

This thread has been moved to the "non rugby talk" forum.
MOD

 

[VM75]

One minute you are arguning it is the application of ME and now it is "just accepted practice". But's let's assume the second is now true, my point stands. VAR is behind the TMO in "value" and a World Cup was not the best place for such an experiment. THe "accptence" of illegal play has been show up for what it is rather than getting the right calls (surely the point of having VAR is to get the right calls? No??).

It's been an improvement IMO, and it's here to stay, i expect materiality to be a key element ongoing, but it's soccer so i could yet be surprised.

If they bring it is for 'exaggerated feigning' sanctioning then even better.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

No one is questioning whether or not VAR is an improvement. The point being made it that the biggest football event in the world (arguably the bigget sporting event in the world) was probably not the best playce to experiment with the system.

 

[Pinky]

No one is questioning whether or not VAR is an improvement. The point being made it that the biggest football event in the world (arguably the bigget sporting event in the world) was probably not the best playce to experiment with the system.

Marc, it had been used before - FA Cup I think at least. And I seem to recall a formal decision by FIFA or some other body to approve it after a two year study. I suppose you are then left with the question, do we use it in the World Cup or wait another 4 years? I think the football authorities are to be applauded for implementing it in the WC.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

This is the first tournament in which it has been used in full. There were trials. It is clear theat there has been considerable confusion and error. The biggest tourament in the world came too soon for me. Even the final saw a dubious penalty awarded using the system. The call should only be made if the offence is C&O yet it took over 4 minutes and the ref went back to the monitor after making a decision to confirm it again.

Clearly the system is flawed and not, yet, fit for purpose. All the referees involved in the tournament needed to have used the system clearly they had not got familiarity with the system.
On 8 January 2018, VAR was trialled for the first time in England in the 2017/8 FA Cup game game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.

Bringing it it too early might be seen as foolish rather than brave.

 

[Pinky]

The introduction of the VAR was a unanimous decision of the International Football Association Board. news here:

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/649/081138_180418_EN_Circular_Workshop_Info.pdf

Other languages are available. They had a detailed report over two years to assess this and that is available on the website too.

I can understand some thinking WC Russia was too soon, but for me Qatar 2022 would be too late. Seems to me it was a sensible improvement from the goal line technology that was used in 2014.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

No one is arguing about whether it was "a unanimous decision of the International Football Association Board." my argument is tht the system was not fit for purpose and needed further trials. Something still very much in a ""beta" status should not, in my opinion, be let loose on the biggest sporting showcase in the world.

We clearly differ on that point. Who / how many voted is not of relevance to that question. We are not going to agree on the point of being fit for purpose so I'll agree to differ on that.

 

[TigerCraig]

This is the first tournament in which it has been used in full. There were trials. It is clear theat there has been considerable confusion and error. The biggest tourament in the world came too soon for me. Even the final saw a dubious penalty awarded using the system. The call should only be made if the offence is C&O yet it took over 4 minutes and the ref went back to the monitor after making a decision to confirm it again.

Clearly the system is flawed and not, yet, fit for purpose. All the referees involved in the tournament needed to have used the system clearly they had not got familiarity with the system.
On 8 January 2018, VAR was trialled for the first time in England in the 2017/8 FA Cup game game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.

Bringing it it too early might be seen as foolish rather than brave.

It was used last season (2017-18) in the Australian A-League. I'm not a soccer follower but from what I heard it had pretty mixed results and acceptance