To call "Ruck" or not to call ruck.

[Bury_Dave]

Hi All,
I was lucky enough to be at Twickenham on Saturday for the opening double header.
The ref' in the first game called 'ruck' once.

In the second game, Mr Richards called it several times (maybe more the reflink went down for a while) and each time called 'hands away'.

From my lofty M23 R70 eirie I couldn't tell if he was calling 'hands away' as both player (or all at the breakdown) were off their feet.

Any suggestions as to why he did this ?

What should we be calling immediately after the tackle and either the tackler has gotten to his feet or other players are arriving ? There appears to be no consensus yet.

Thanks,
Dave (newbie ref').

 

[Simonsky]

I'm a new ref approaching my second 15-a side game on Saturday and worring about the breakdown. As a newbie the speed and acuity of processing the visual info is tricky and most refs on this site have said it takes six-seven games to get used to it. There is a good, helpful thread on this entitled 'Extra ELRA day on the Breakdowns' -if you put that title in the search you'll get it.

Don't forget to let us know how you get on in your games

 

[PaulDG]

Hi All,
I was lucky enough to be at Twickenham on Saturday for the opening double header.
The ref' in the first game called 'ruck' once.

In the second game, Mr Richards called it several times (maybe more the reflink went down for a while) and each time called 'hands away'.

From my lofty M23 R70 eirie I couldn't tell if he was calling 'hands away' as both player (or all at the breakdown) were off their feet.

Any suggestions as to why he did this ?

It's a matter of style and to communicate to players that, in the opinion of the only person who matters, "ruck" offside lines are in place.

What should we be calling immediately after the tackle and either the tackler has gotten to his feet or other players are arriving ? There appears to be no consensus yet.

If the players aren't in contact, then there's no ruck, so there's no reason to say anything at all.

If they are in contact, it can be worth shouting "ruck" partly to remind them and also to set in your mind what phase of play you are managing.

At our conference on Sunday it was suggest that calling "Hands away" isn't a good idea any more as the ruling means that the "fetcher" can keep hands on. So best not to confuse things and keep it simple and short.

(Of course there's no requirement for you to say anything at all. Telling the players there's a ruck - or not - is part of how you manage the game in front of you. It's not always helpful, especially if you're shouting "ruck" when there clearly isn't one as that wont do your credibility any good at all!)

 

[Dickie E]

It's a matter of style and to communicate to players that, in the opinion of the only person who matters, "ruck" offside lines are in place.

I'd be more inclined to think he called 'ruck' to stop players contesting for the ball with their hands.

 

[Bury_Dave]

I'd be more inclined to think he called 'ruck' to stop players contesting for the ball with their hands.

But can't you play the ball with your hands in a ruck now ? Provided you are on your feet and came in through the gate. Are you saying that once a number of players are in a ruck over the ball that no-one else can come in and get the ball with their hands and it must be dug out with the feet ?

Sorry if this is all a bit lame/basic but I'm very green.

Dave

 

[Phil E]

But can't you play the ball with your hands in a ruck now ?

NO.

Provided you are on your feet and came in through the gate. Are you saying that once a number of players are in a ruck over the ball that no-one else can come in and get the ball with their hands and it must be dug out with the feet ?

YES.

ONLY if a player has his hands on the ball BEFORE the ruck forms can he (and ONLY HIM) continue to handle it. No one else gets to play with their hands.

 

[Greg Collins]

AIUI only the first arriver from either side, on their feet and not in contact with an oppo player, having complied with all Law 15 requires, can put hands on, (t)he can keep hands on whilst any ruck forms around him/them. once it has formed no one else can put their hands on it, and if their hands come off that's it (t)he can't put them back.

Thus this season a ruck can turn into a maul..... shock horror, cries of 'bring back hacking'

Sure others can explain it more eloquently

 

[Phil E]

This is what it says on our Society training page:

Change in Interpretation at Tackle and Ensuing Ruck

Last season, before you called ruck, tacklers who had regained their feet and released the tackled player could play the ball from anywhere. Arriving players at the tackle could play the ball as long as they arrived through the gate. As soon as you called ruck everyone had to let go and get their hands off.

Here's the difference. Now, players on their feet, if they already had hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming, can still continue to handle the ball, even if ruck has been called. (Remember tacklers can play the ball form anywhere but must first release the ball and get back to their feet). Let's think about this. It will be easier to referee in many ways. How many times have you called ruck just as a player has a go for the ball and you have penalised the poor soul? It will also allow for a greater competition at the tackle and for that matter the ruck. It will also perhaps lead to greater penalty for tackled players holding on. It may mean that there is more penalty for arriving players going off their feet as they try to clear out that player and perhaps more aggressive entry to the ruck or tackle area.



How do we referee it. The keys points are this:

• You must get there immediately and identify who is a tackler and who is not.
  
• Encourage all players to release the ball. The call of "Release" may help.
  
• Call "Ruck" as soon as the ruck is formed. Do not call "Hands off" or similar as some players can now handle.
  
• Call "Arrive Up" or perhaps "Through the Gate" as an encouragement to all others to obey the laws.
  
• Make sure all arrive through the gate, including attackers and be hard on non-compliance.

 

[Donal1988]

Phil surely "release" and "hands off" are very similar calls. That surely will need to be colour specific i.e. "release red" or "attack release".

 

[Greg Collins]

See I knew eloquence was not far behind.

Now, whilst there is little in this for me to get het up about, as this sort of technical play won't happen in any game I'm sent to ref, unless the hon. appt. sec. makes some sort of catastrohic error, the thing is though.....

all the advice seems to suppose that the pill is going to stay on the floor. it isn't. Someone, from time-to-time, is going to win* the hands-on battle of strength going on in the middle of the ruck. Plenty of players can pick up a ball with one hand. (Have you seen Simon Shaw's hands they are HUGE) and once that pill is off the deck, and assuming the tackled player has, for once, actually let go (Red Herring Mr W Barnes says he lets 'em have one tug - ooh err missus - for free) it ain't a ruck no more it is a maul. and that is important cos the offsides laws for mauls are now different to the offsides laws for ruck. and that maul can't turn back into a ruck folks can it?

PS and if a ruck is formed the arriving players don't have to come through the gate any more so don't shout that or the assessors will all have coronaries.

*or maybe not and a player from each side will lift the ball off the deck

 

[Donal1988]

if a ruck is formed the arriving players don't have to come through the gate any more so don't shout that or the assessors will all have coronaries.

You have me confused Greg. Law 16.5(c):
Players joining or rejoining the ruck. All players joining a ruck must do so from behind
the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck. A player may join alongside this hindmost
player. If the player joins the ruck from the opponents’ side, or in front of the hindmost
team-mate, the player is offside.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offending team’s offside line

Did you maybe mean if a ruck ISNT formed.

 

[Greg Collins]

Did you maybe mean if a ruck ISNT formed.

Nope what i mean is the gate only exists at the tackle zone, once the tackle transitions into a ruck or maul the gate ceases to exist...

e.g. Watch Jonny Wilkinson in his Falcons days, he perfected the art of getting tackled going over backwards and stretching back towards his goal line parallel to the touchline to present the ball to his team mates whilst simultaneously creating a very narrow gate for the oppo. V clever player mr wilkinson.

Now if a ruck forms say three people wide over him it is about 3x wider than the gate was.... and the player joining alongside his rearmost mate may not be anywhere near the gate. Not that it matters, imo, because the gate ceased to exist when the ruck or maul formed. I don't think shouting "through the gate" at ruck or maul will help players but I'd go for "back feet" as it applies to those joining ruck or maul AND any 3/4's kind enough to listen to my advice.

I offer as evidence the distinct signals for offside at (scrum,) ruck or maul (No 34) joining a ruck or maul in front of back foot and from the side (no 17) vs entering tackle (zone) from wrong direction (No 12)

But I concede I may well be wrong.....

 

[Taff]

..... all the advice seems to suppose that the pill is going to stay on the floor. it isn't. Someone, from time-to-time, is going to win* the hands-on battle of strength going on in the middle of the ruck. Plenty of players can pick up a ball with one hand. .... and once that pill is off the deck ....it ain't a ruck no more it is a maul.

But to be a maul, the players have to be on their feet? What I was told was that if the ball was off the floor, but the players were still off their feet, it was a "pile up" and a reasonable period of time would be allowed for it to come out.

 

[Greg Collins]

But to be a maul, the players have to be on their feet? What I was told was that if the ball was off the floor, but the players were still off their feet, it was a "pile up" and a reasonable period of time would be allowed for it to come out.

They have to be on their feet in a ruck too. If they ain't and the ball ain't out pronto then that too is a pile up and thus ping! sorry lads it's a mess scrum down, etc., etc.. Ignore what you see on TV rugby btw where they just make a big pyramid of bodies at ruck time. different game ont'telly.

I like the idea of a reasonable amount of time but I prefer the idea of RIGHT NOW as rucks/pile ups are potential flashpoints and boots may land on bodies if we let it go on too long.

 

[Dixie]

What should we be calling immediately after the tackle and either the tackler has gotten to his feet or other players are arriving ? There appears to be no consensus yet.

Dave (newbie ref').

Let's not get all esoteric, losing sight of poor old Bury "Newbie ref" Dave and his needs.

Dave, you are right that there is no consensus yet. We don't even know for sure if a ruck is capable of forming when one player has his hands on the ball and others make contact with him or the ball. I found it all very hard first time out (i.e. last weekend), and will wait to see how it all settles down. Meanwhile, I'm prepared to give the first man in a lot more latitude in trying to win the ball, and am likely to ping his oppo if he is prevented from coming away from the ball cleanly (easier said than done on the evidence of last week, though).

 

[Greg Collins]

Fair point dixie, doubt at my level it will make one jot of difference except one game in ten.

 

[DrSTU]

This is what it says on our Society training page:

Change in Interpretation at Tackle and Ensuing Ruck

Last season, before you called ruck, tacklers who had regained their feet and released the tackled player could play the ball from anywhere. Arriving players at the tackle could play the ball as long as they arrived through the gate. As soon as you called ruck everyone had to let go and get their hands off.

Here's the difference. Now, players on their feet, if they already had hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming, can still continue to handle the ball, even if ruck has been called. (Remember tacklers can play the ball form anywhere but must first release the ball and get back to their feet). Let's think about this. It will be easier to referee in many ways. How many times have you called ruck just as a player has a go for the ball and you have penalised the poor soul? It will also allow for a greater competition at the tackle and for that matter the ruck. It will also perhaps lead to greater penalty for tackled players holding on. It may mean that there is more penalty for arriving players going off their feet as they try to clear out that player and perhaps more aggressive entry to the ruck or tackle area.



How do we referee it. The keys points are this:

• You must get there immediately and identify who is a tackler and who is not.
  
• Encourage all players to release the ball. The call of "Release" may help.
  
• Call "Ruck" as soon as the ruck is formed. Do not call "Hands off" or similar as some players can now handle.
  
• Call "Arrive Up" or perhaps "Through the Gate" as an encouragement to all others to obey the laws.
  
• Make sure all arrive through the gate, including attackers and be hard on non-compliance.

Hasn't this changed this year?

15.69(c)

The player who puts a player on the ground and stays on his/her feet has to release that player and can then only play the ball by coming from the direction of his own goal line, behind the ball and the player on the ground nearest his goal line.

There's a pic in the appendix of the pdf doing the rounds.

 

[Greg Collins]

but if "The player who puts a player on the ground" stays on his feet he isn't a tackler so the guidance above is correct as it applies to tacklers.

Tacklers (who by definition have gone to ground) can, once they've complied with their obligations, play the ball from anywhere whereas non tacklers, i.e. The player who puts a player on the ground and stays on his/her feet (and so is NOT a tackler - Greg) has to release that player andcan then only play the ball by coming from the direction of his own goal line, behind the ball and the player on the ground nearest his goal line.

They should all just be good Catholic boys like me and genuflect. Sorted.

 

[DrSTU]

but if "The player who puts a player on the ground" stays on his feet he isn't a tackler so the guidance above is correct as it applies to tacklers.

Tacklers (who by definition have gone to ground) can, once they've complied with their obligations, play the ball from anywhere whereas non tacklers, i.e. The player who puts a player on the ground and stays on his/her feet (and so is NOT a tackler - Greg) has to release that player andcan then only play the ball by coming from the direction of his own goal line, behind the ball and the player on the ground nearest his goal line.

They should all just be good Catholic boys like me and genuflect. Sorted.

Yeah fair points, we had this discussion the other day. Just as long as people realise that if they take a player to ground without becoming a "tackler" they have to go round t' back before playing the ball.

If I play at flank again I'm going to have a field day with these new regs!

 

[OB..]

it ain't a ruck no more it is a maul. and that is important cos the offsides laws for mauls are now different to the offsides laws for ruck. and that maul can't turn back into a ruck folks can it

The offside laws are identical mutatis mutandis. However the turnover (or not) law is different.

You can turn a maul into a ruck by letting the ball go to the ground (but not forward).

If the ball carrier goes to ground and the ball is not available, you have an unsuccessful end to a maul.