Too many cards?

[Mike Selig]

Hi all,

The title says it all really, in the last 3 games I've given a total of 5 YCs and 1 RC.

Today again I gave 2 YCs both to the home side. First one, red prop clear side entry 25 meters out, not the first time red had killed the ball. As blue took a quick tap the same prop tackled the ball carrier. :noyc:

Red give away another pen for killing the ball, call over captain and say "I won't hesitate to send another to the bin if it carries on", a couple of minutes later (still only 7 minutes into 1st YC) red flanker flicks the ball back whilst off his feet at a ruck, 10 meters from try-line.:noyc:

The YC's in previous games all followed warnings to the captains, and usually soon after as well.

Now I was assessed a couple of weeks ago and the assessor said I was telling them what to do but they just weren't listening, but it is becoming a worry for me at the moment. I feel I'm not getting "easy" games anymore (you know, when you're comfortable throughout) which isn't to say I'm not reffing well (I think in general I am, and so seemingly do the teams and observers).

So I guess the question is is two YCs per game excessive and if so how can I cut down? Perhaps talk less but more effectively? Each time I've first warned the skipper "you're in dangerous territory" but clearly the message isn't getting accross.

All advice/comments welcome.

 

[Adam]

I'm on about 1 YC per match at the moment, although the 3 YC I gave today will have dented that average (all for a brawl, 1 perpetrator, 1 retaliator, 1 Superman).

 

[andyscott]

2 per game is my average

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

2 per game is my average

Red?:biggrin:

 

[Fat Twin]

Mike,

dont panic about giving cards. When i first started I hardly ever wanted to give a card as I felt it reflected on me. I thought i could positively manage players to keep everyone on the pitch. And you can with some teams - but your right - as you move up it gets harder.

After one tough match I was discussing with my assessor the YC issue. He called across a professional player from another club he knew who happened to be watching:

"At what point do you take notice of the referee?" he asked.

"When he's about to send me off!"

Players discipline and conduct is THEIR concern - deflect it back to them. Often a YC can improve the penalty count.

I average about 1.5 YC per game (total for season is 42 YC 4 RC from 30 games - 3 RC in last two matches!) I have 9 matches with no cards. It depends on what is in front of you.

Dont beat yourself up. If its a YC then issue it and remind the captain it's his responsibility to manage discipline - not yours!

Keep going fella.

 

[andyscott]

Red?:biggrin:

Er enough

I haven't sent anyone off since October and that was for a spear tackle.

 

[ddjamo]

I was in the card valley of death for about a year and then worked my way out of it with a few changes:

- made sure the offenders/skippers know EXACTLY why they are being penalized.
- reduced white noise and became more specific with number and color.
- increased my work rate in the problem areas.

in your match you were having issues with side entry and hands in. I would get there and prevent those issues prior to the chance of them happening.

 

[andyscott]

I'm on about 1 YC per match at the moment, although the 3 YC I gave today will have dented that average (all for a brawl, 1 perpetrator, 1 retaliator, 1 Superman).

Punches that land always get a red card from me, swing and a miss yellow :wink:

 

[Fat Twin]

I had a "biting" incident that resulted in a Red last week. Saw it clearly enough and he admitted it - but claimed the oppo had squeezed his testicles and he instinctively reacted.

He then proceeded to produce his entire nether region on the pitch as way of evidence:

"Ref. Look at this".... Err..... No thanks! :norc:

 

[jeff]

I Have reffed over 500 games in the last 5 years and i have only given two red cards and about 25/30 yellow in all that time. I keep myself fit and will be at the tackle area 3rd man 9 times out of 10 and let players know what i expect from them. i talk nice and loud at the maul to let them again know what i require from them. its worked for me, but i only tell the players what they need to know(7 yellow roll away, black 4 stay on your feet.
I have done a lot of county teams and academy teams and as long as they know what you expect from them they will do their best to listen to your advice.
Saying that i had 1 yellow today for 2 green joining the maul in front of the back foot and then trying to collapse it after i told him to leave and retire whilst playing advantage to red team who were driving forward.

 

[Dixie]

Mike, these things tend to come in waves. This wave of multiple cards (2 per game) doesn't seem excessive to me (watch the coming 6N - I bet the average there will not be far off yours). Of course, we prefer to go long stretches without any cards, or with a few spread between many games - but you are not really in control of that.

The fact that you are concerned demonstrates that you have the right attitude. Keep working with them - it won't be long until you once again find teams that are prepared to keep up their end of the bargain. But do take on board the good advice from other contributors - just don't be surprised if it is not an instant panacea.

 

[Mike Selig]

Thanks all for advice. Was away all week on conference hence no answers until now.

Having thought it through I think they're a couple of main reasons for the recent "uptrend" in my cards:

1) positioning: having at last got myself away from constantly going into the chariot position, I have now gone to the opposite extreme and am getting too narrow too often. This means I have a limitted view of one side of the ruck so am unable to prevent side-entries in particular (as I don't see them before they happen: were I in position I could make eye-contact and shout "no" hopefully before they'd entered the ruck illegally). Additionally the players see where I'm standing and decide to try it on, hoping I won't notice what is on the other side of the ruck (and I daresay sometimes I don't, but I do spot the obvious ones and this leads to YCs).

2) Attitude: I have become less lenient, in a real attempt to improve my game, as I had the feeling the last couple of years I had stagnated a bit (also due to work commitments etc I had less time to give refereeing). I have stopped taking the view that "well maybe he didn't mean it". Also I am getting the level 10s a lot more regularly (I think in my final season in Somerset I only got 2 or 3 10s...) and a higher quality of match, so am assuming the players to be better, therefore...

Finally I do think some players (mainly the ones who used to be good and now play at the standard I ref) see a young referee and think they can try more on than say if they saw ST turn up. And automatically assume he will let them get away with more.

Anyway I shall keep working...

 

[winchesterref]

Ok so I'm off work with a bug today, so doing some reading which is why a few threads are popping up again

In my last few games, there have been a high number of yellow cards. I've read quite a few threads about management and keeping players on the pitch, is there anything in particular you guys do when you're managing the penalty count?

I have tried this over the last 3-4 matches:
Quiet time initially, faster on the whistle and early penalty to lay out what I want
Prevention calls where appropriate, try the SMD technique that Drift told me about most of the time
After 3-4 penalties of a similar nature (breakdown/offsides etc) I speak to the captain
I card the next one
I allow them another couple (depends on time gap!) then either bin/warn skipper again

It is fairly situation specific so can't be certain it is like this every time.

Is there anything missing here to get the skipper on my side? Key phrases used have included "we talked about this before the game", "you agreed...", "please fix this", "behaviour needs to change", "running out of options". Maybe I need to look more at "listen mate stop offending and I'll buy you a beer"

Positioning has not been a big problem, I generally have a clear view and I've policed the offside lines pretty well since my early season exchange report where I got in some awful places (told him I was rusty....!) and couldn't see anything in open field, it has been a big work on, but the game seems generally too quick (whilst we have this firm ground?) to manage this effectively vocally and prevent everything, so am I just catching it more? Has lead to a few repeat team offence cards. Do I need to pre-empt this and warn them anyway, offside or not, but then I'm falling into white noise territory...? For example last week there were 5 offside pens early on, and the week before 7 (both sides).

Skill level of the players. Fine line between empathising, sympathising and dictating, but at 6/7 the players know what they're doing. Or do they...? At 6 maybe, but at 7 is it really no different? Do they need more sympathy and explanation or vocal management? I'm of the opinion that I would rather prevent offences. Last season I spent the whole year talking to players all the time and having great run arounds with non stop play apart from when they dropped it! I've since been told to be quiet a lot more, as have we all, and find the prevention is a lot tougher and still need to say something at most phases of play, but I don't as I keep being told by others that it isn't me giving things away and that players should be listening for instructions (which they are given clearly - short and colour specific if not number). Do people think the continual chatter and breakdown management is better for players at L7 and even low end L6? Quite often players will ask on the field for more talk. Opinions? (Bet this is a what works for you scenario!)

Last few games have been L6, L6, U16 and L7. So as above, the strategy I've tried out has been to lay down what I want early, seems to be producing non responsive players, although I can't rule out their possible low understanding/skill level. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Ok so I'm off work with a bug today, so doing some reading which is why a few threads are popping up again

In my last few games, ...... Thoughts? Thanks.

Jonesp92 - nothing unusual here as you start to make the transition to a pro-active preventative management focus rather than a reactive technical laws style of refereeing.

You say "managing the penalty count" and concern about high number of YCs. I had a L5 Group referee on Saturday with just that issue in his match !

Without seeing a DVD or video of you in action it is very difficult to advise you on specifics. You are obviously analysing the issues yourself and you mention all the key words and aspects to be considered.

At L6 and up into L5 and Panel, it is all about the effectiveness of your management - just saying the right things or making the right signals at the right time is not enough, you have to get the engagement and correct outcomes. That takes time to get right and the correct full package of verbal, non-verbal, timing, which offences, etc is all a subtle blend.

Speak to experienced L6s and to the Group and Panel guys and develop your management accordingly.

No need to panic and it will come in time.

 

[winchesterref]

Thanks Simon. That blend is the tough bit!

 

[andyscott]

Ok your cards are a management tool.
Keep 15 players on the pitch, get that out of your head!!! Thats not your job, its theirs.

Cut down your prematch brief, only brief front rows and skipper, thats it. Any more and players think you are not confident and they wont listen.

Set your standard to a point, but also allow the game to flow. Ping killer penalties hard, warn or go straight to cards if you need to.

As for carding again, do it, they will learn
Dont worry about levels when refereeing. 2 weeks ago I refereed level 11 like a 6 and they learned quickly

We want more chat, no we want you to tell us so we can cheat more. If you have to ask hands off X blue at every ruck are they listening?
Cut your chat to effectively short phrases, keep clarifications short, 6 green hands in ruck. Dont go any further. If needs be march then card.
Take a step is fine, but once, then ping, then warn.

You can be relaxed but be prepared to get get those reigns in tight if you need to.

 

[ianh5979]

Ok your cards are a management tool.
Keep 15 players on the pitch, get that out of your head!!! Thats not your job, its theirs.

Cut down your prematch brief, only brief front rows and skipper, thats it. Any more and players think you are not confident and they wont listen.

Set your standard to a point, but also allow the game to flow. Ping killer penalties hard, warn or go straight to cards if you need to.

As for carding again, do it, they will learn
Dont worry about levels when refereeing. 2 weeks ago I refereed level 11 like a 6 and they learned quickly

We want more chat, no we want you to tell us so we can cheat more. If you have to ask hands off X blue at every ruck are they listening?
Cut your chat to effectively short phrases, keep clarifications short, 6 green hands in ruck. Dont go any further. If needs be march then card.
Take a step is fine, but once, then ping, then warn.

You can be relaxed but be prepared to get get those reigns in tight if you need to.

Welcome back Andy!!